Andrew McGeever wrote:
>nothing happens in the poem. It was never a narrative, just an idea put into words, then commited as poetry. In this respect I've been consistent
Dear Andrew. Earlier in this thread you wrote:
>Begin at the end; the best place to start. So many lines between the first and last, and some disturbing stuff in the middle. Yet I feel it works . . .
A personal message appeared yesterday in my forum mailbox. It asked me how I, a staunch admirer of Leonard's blatantly pornographic Beautiful Losers, could then criticise the prosaic scenario depicted in your verse. That was a good question, and one that deserves to be answered out here in the daylight.
Disregarding literary comparisons, of course, there is a profound difference. The 'beauty' of Beautiful Losers, with its detailed examination of sexual anarchy, lies in its ultimate discovery of regret. Your verse, on the other hand, concludes only with 'nearness and dearness' - not the slightest hint of regret. You give the impression that you are either blind to the snake in Paradise or that you welcome it. Leonard writes (in 'A Long Letter from F.):
"In the midst of the high jump, I saw the body wither. Between the spurts of come, you launched your tidings of regret."
He describes with complete honesty the exact moment when a person realises the wrong they have committed, when the important nuance between love and self gratification creeps into the consciousness, when only at the moment of release one realises the betrayal of which they are architect. You maintain there is "disturbing stuff in the middle" of your verse. Well, that is a start.
Before You're Sixty-Four.
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Your are right, Sue and I are dear friends. I am privy to her darkest secrets, and sorry to have had to divulge this one about her being a member of a sometimes-orgy. Sorry, Sue, though I doubt you mind. It is how you got your chosen name, after all.William wrote:Well slap my thighs Manna but that is an amazing exposition.
I still maintain Sue is known, well known, to you!!!!
Even if you don't know that you know it, if you follow?
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Andrew McGeever asked:
>Can a poem be "wicked" per se, or is it the fault of the writer's "wicked" thoughts?
Your poem, dealing with adultery, encourages the betrayal of a partner - and is wicked. Make no mistake, my friend. The problem, if I may call it such, is that the path to orgasm generally requires both physical and psychical means of stimulation - perhaps about fifty percent of each. While touch and pressure play a great role on the one side, the mental involvement required to achieve one's goal is considerably more complex - and again usually divisional. In an illicit relationship it is this emotional territory, the area dealing with the mind, that can eventually be the most damaging. Part of one's mental source of excitement is constituted by the perceptions, the sensual experiences, feelings, images or memories arising directly out of the situation. Any remaining stimuli needed to give sufficient arousal is provided by daydreams or fantasies until pleasure is so intense that climax occurs. Is it strange that sex outside of marriage most often has destructive consequences? What spouse, apart from the real danger of sexually transmitted diseases, can tolerate their partner being in such intimacy with a third party? It's not a game. It hurts. Don't do it - and don't encourage others to do this evil deed.
>Can a poem be "wicked" per se, or is it the fault of the writer's "wicked" thoughts?
Your poem, dealing with adultery, encourages the betrayal of a partner - and is wicked. Make no mistake, my friend. The problem, if I may call it such, is that the path to orgasm generally requires both physical and psychical means of stimulation - perhaps about fifty percent of each. While touch and pressure play a great role on the one side, the mental involvement required to achieve one's goal is considerably more complex - and again usually divisional. In an illicit relationship it is this emotional territory, the area dealing with the mind, that can eventually be the most damaging. Part of one's mental source of excitement is constituted by the perceptions, the sensual experiences, feelings, images or memories arising directly out of the situation. Any remaining stimuli needed to give sufficient arousal is provided by daydreams or fantasies until pleasure is so intense that climax occurs. Is it strange that sex outside of marriage most often has destructive consequences? What spouse, apart from the real danger of sexually transmitted diseases, can tolerate their partner being in such intimacy with a third party? It's not a game. It hurts. Don't do it - and don't encourage others to do this evil deed.
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Dear Geoffrey/William/Percy, the point all one of you is missing is that Andrew's poem was art not Life, now of course you may say that Life included art, and that would be a clever point to which I have no answer.Geoffrey wrote:Andrew McGeever asked:
>Can a poem be "wicked" Percy , or is it the fault of the writer's "wicked" thoughts?
I recommend ironing to smooth away your crumpled edges whenever you are board
lots of love
Sue
yeah, well, errrrm, hum, yeah, ok, I dunno, articulation is not my fing, who cares, SHUT IT YOU MUPPET, blah blah blah
-
Diane
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Geoffrey said:
It was a little rude of me to phrase it the way I did. I'll try again:
When I am considering candidates for the task of praying for my spiritual recovery, your name tends not to occur. I mean, what would you do if I sang out of tune, would you stand up and walk out on me? I imagine that you would. So I would not sing in your presence, which means you could never know my song, and therefore you would not be able to assist it in any way. The same applies to my spirit. But I do appreciate the offer.
What do you see when you turn out the light, Geoffrey?
I said:With prayers for your spiritual recovery
Geoffrey said:Geoffrey, you haven't got a snowball's chance in hell.
Of praying for my spiritual recovery.of . . .?
It was a little rude of me to phrase it the way I did. I'll try again:
When I am considering candidates for the task of praying for my spiritual recovery, your name tends not to occur. I mean, what would you do if I sang out of tune, would you stand up and walk out on me? I imagine that you would. So I would not sing in your presence, which means you could never know my song, and therefore you would not be able to assist it in any way. The same applies to my spirit. But I do appreciate the offer.
What do you see when you turn out the light, Geoffrey?
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Sue them and weep wrote:
"the point all one of you is missing is that Andrew's poem was art not Life..."
"Unbutton each other etc...."
Unbutton your lip?
Art?
I don' think so.
Do you really think so SueM
?
Back to the bench you bold himher
"the point all one of you is missing is that Andrew's poem was art not Life..."
"Unbutton each other etc...."
Unbutton your lip?
Art?
I don' think so.
Do you really think so SueM
?Back to the bench you bold himher
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Diane asked:
>What do you see when you turn out the light, Geoffrey?
The glow of a still-warm grill after making my supper. The exotic national dish of Wales: Welsh rarebit! But why not just call it 'cheese on toast' like they do everywhere else?
>What do you see when you turn out the light, Geoffrey?
The glow of a still-warm grill after making my supper. The exotic national dish of Wales: Welsh rarebit! But why not just call it 'cheese on toast' like they do everywhere else?
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
well Geoffrey, the extra ingredient is beer! we all know someone on this board who would appreciate that!Geoffrey wrote:Diane asked:
>What do you see when you turn out the light, Geoffrey?
The glow of a still-warm grill after making my supper. The exotic national dish of Wales: Welsh rarebit! But why not just call it 'cheese on toast' like they do everywhere else?
a personal question, Geoffrey, do you do all your own ironing?
kind regards
Sue
yeah, well, errrrm, hum, yeah, ok, I dunno, articulation is not my fing, who cares, SHUT IT YOU MUPPET, blah blah blah
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Sideway, backways, on the bench, off the bench, in the dock, on the rocks, bewigged, dewigged bothered & bewildered.
You got it Suemi
You got it Suemi
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Geoffrey, after receiving a private mail ( 
), writes of a comparison between my "64" and "Leonard's blatantly pornographic Beautiful Losers" (Arril 12th, on this thread).
"Between the spurts of come, you launched your tidings of regret' (sic).
Geoffrey, it's you who are coming on a bit strong
.
At this stage in my life, I need all the comparisons I can get.....thanks for the post. Please inform us of your next pm, and the resultant considered release of any angst you may have endured.
Andrew.
), writes of a comparison between my "64" and "Leonard's blatantly pornographic Beautiful Losers" (Arril 12th, on this thread)."Between the spurts of come, you launched your tidings of regret' (sic).
Geoffrey, it's you who are coming on a bit strong
.At this stage in my life, I need all the comparisons I can get.....thanks for the post. Please inform us of your next pm, and the resultant considered release of any angst you may have endured.
Andrew.
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annie blue
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:50 pm
- Location: In another thread
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
just read the whole thread from start to finish and that was one of the most entertaining hours i've spent in a long time 
i'd like to thank andrew, lizzy, geoffrey, judith, my mum for having me thus allowing the pleasure of life and everyone else for the great postings. great poyme andrew - i hardly dare say it out loud for fear of reprisal, we've already had one explosion here in leeds today!!!! 
it was heartfelt and sexy (the poem not the explosion ) and brought a tiny tear to my eye also as it started when i was still in a happy marriage (water under the bridge i hasten to add and ex and i still best mates - life's too short for bitterness) 
unbutton and be damned. i think we should try and keep this thread going foreeeeeeeeeeever
am now gonna check out your son's myspace - or do i remember reading that it had disappeared?? well here goes anyway.
btw, i too fall asleep to r4 but a lot earlier. the world tonight and it's almost time. goodnight and god bless everyone
no, it was there and very lovely music too. you should be reight praad cither
i'd like to thank andrew, lizzy, geoffrey, judith, my mum for having me thus allowing the pleasure of life and everyone else for the great postings. great poyme andrew - i hardly dare say it out loud for fear of reprisal, we've already had one explosion here in leeds today!!!! it was heartfelt and sexy (the poem not the explosion ) and brought a tiny tear to my eye also as it started when i was still in a happy marriage (water under the bridge i hasten to add and ex and i still best mates - life's too short for bitterness) unbutton and be damned. i think we should try and keep this thread going foreeeeeeeeeeever am now gonna check out your son's myspace - or do i remember reading that it had disappeared?? well here goes anyway.
btw, i too fall asleep to r4 but a lot earlier. the world tonight and it's almost time. goodnight and god bless everyone
no, it was there and very lovely music too. you should be reight praad cither
I never answer, since it isn't you.
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
hello. my attention has been brought to fresh activity in this thread, and i long to participate. i have so much i want to say. but i don't have time right now. it's late, i am tired - and before dawn must row over to the mainland for provisions while the weather is calm. wednesday is market day in aalesund; i hope to buy whale-meat that i can slice and freeze, plus new seal-skins for the bed. will be home tomorrow evening, weather permitting - otherwise will overnight at the lutheran mission hall. goodbye for now.
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Andrew wrote:
>Geoffrey, Please inform us . . . of any angst you may have endured.
i'm back now, came home early yesterday morning. on the way over to aalesund the day before i set out a couple of nets in the fjord, and pulled them back up on my way home - several herring and two drowned gulls. the birds see the fish down in the net and dive after them, only to get tangled themselves. there are little orange floaters attached to the nets, so i know where to locate them. in the town (it's massive; about 55,000 people live there!) i bought fresh supplies, plus new lobster pots, goat's cheese, treacle, furs and whale-beef. also the store had flavoured yoghurt, apricot, for the first time - before they sold only natural, to which i usually added runny honey. but most important of all, a friend has given me a second-hand outboard motor to fix onto the back of my boat. it uses petrol, and i have to pull a string, several times, to make it start. very noisy but much more comfortable than rowing. i have to put it into neutral, he said, turn a little silver knob half-way round what feeds the fuel, and then keep pulling the string until it suddenly splutters - then as it roars loudly i have to turn the knob back a bit and then untie the rope from the rock - then it's just to drive. i was thinking about andrew while laying in the mission hall that night, i was thinking about what i was going to write and i decided to not tell him off no more because he can't help what he is - it's the way he was brought up. he writes a grubby poem - but the dirt is invisible, inconspicuous. the bit containing the filth he edited out so that the reader has to use imagination and put it back in order to maintain continuation and make sense of it. that's the 'wicked' part. the physical act in andrew's poem is left to one's fantasy - one is encouraged to participate in forming the mucky details. he plants a growing fungus into our minds. i often come across this type of thing in library books (see below). the chapter ends just as the couple are climbing into bed, and the new chapter starts and it's not mentioned no more about it - it's all happened, it's done. the sex is hidden, glossed over. leonard's beautiful losers doesn't do that, it's like he's continued on from all those abrupt endings. his book is like a collection of all the missing bits. andrew cheats us, either through sheer cowardice or an evil desire to coerce his readers into guessing exactly what rotten antics those two selfish buggers happened to get up to. we are supposed to excuse what they did because it is love. love? - don't piss in my wellingtons and tell me my feet sweat. however, one thing is to write about sinful things, another is to make an audience write it themselves in their own minds. andrew is the devil's lackey, he is holding up the bible and telling us that the covers are black for a reason. i say remember the three monkeys. he accuses me of angst, implies that i see everything as good or bad, that my angst-filled little finger never once took the biggest half of the wishbone.
can you tell me what you read, please? five old books i just returned to my local library.
1. 'borderlands of sanity' - thorkil vanggaard 1979, pp 237
(neuroses, schizophrenic borderline states and atypical endogenous depression)
2/3. 'psykoneuroser' - erling jacobsen 1965, pp 256 / pp 150
(danish, 2 volumes)
4. 'ego psychology' - gertrude and rubin blanck 1974, pp 395
(theory and practice)
5. 'borderline conditions and pathological narcissism' - otto f. kernberg 1975, pp 361
(a systematic analysis of the psychopathology, diagnosis, prognosis and treatment)
>Geoffrey, Please inform us . . . of any angst you may have endured.
i'm back now, came home early yesterday morning. on the way over to aalesund the day before i set out a couple of nets in the fjord, and pulled them back up on my way home - several herring and two drowned gulls. the birds see the fish down in the net and dive after them, only to get tangled themselves. there are little orange floaters attached to the nets, so i know where to locate them. in the town (it's massive; about 55,000 people live there!) i bought fresh supplies, plus new lobster pots, goat's cheese, treacle, furs and whale-beef. also the store had flavoured yoghurt, apricot, for the first time - before they sold only natural, to which i usually added runny honey. but most important of all, a friend has given me a second-hand outboard motor to fix onto the back of my boat. it uses petrol, and i have to pull a string, several times, to make it start. very noisy but much more comfortable than rowing. i have to put it into neutral, he said, turn a little silver knob half-way round what feeds the fuel, and then keep pulling the string until it suddenly splutters - then as it roars loudly i have to turn the knob back a bit and then untie the rope from the rock - then it's just to drive. i was thinking about andrew while laying in the mission hall that night, i was thinking about what i was going to write and i decided to not tell him off no more because he can't help what he is - it's the way he was brought up. he writes a grubby poem - but the dirt is invisible, inconspicuous. the bit containing the filth he edited out so that the reader has to use imagination and put it back in order to maintain continuation and make sense of it. that's the 'wicked' part. the physical act in andrew's poem is left to one's fantasy - one is encouraged to participate in forming the mucky details. he plants a growing fungus into our minds. i often come across this type of thing in library books (see below). the chapter ends just as the couple are climbing into bed, and the new chapter starts and it's not mentioned no more about it - it's all happened, it's done. the sex is hidden, glossed over. leonard's beautiful losers doesn't do that, it's like he's continued on from all those abrupt endings. his book is like a collection of all the missing bits. andrew cheats us, either through sheer cowardice or an evil desire to coerce his readers into guessing exactly what rotten antics those two selfish buggers happened to get up to. we are supposed to excuse what they did because it is love. love? - don't piss in my wellingtons and tell me my feet sweat. however, one thing is to write about sinful things, another is to make an audience write it themselves in their own minds. andrew is the devil's lackey, he is holding up the bible and telling us that the covers are black for a reason. i say remember the three monkeys. he accuses me of angst, implies that i see everything as good or bad, that my angst-filled little finger never once took the biggest half of the wishbone.
can you tell me what you read, please? five old books i just returned to my local library.
1. 'borderlands of sanity' - thorkil vanggaard 1979, pp 237
(neuroses, schizophrenic borderline states and atypical endogenous depression)
2/3. 'psykoneuroser' - erling jacobsen 1965, pp 256 / pp 150
(danish, 2 volumes)
4. 'ego psychology' - gertrude and rubin blanck 1974, pp 395
(theory and practice)
5. 'borderline conditions and pathological narcissism' - otto f. kernberg 1975, pp 361
(a systematic analysis of the psychopathology, diagnosis, prognosis and treatment)
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
Hello Geoffrey, what a lovely idea! I don't know any of your books but they all seem really boring! I hope thye have lots of good pictures in them. Here are the 5 books I returned to the library tomorrow last weekGeoffrey wrote: can you tell me what you read, please? five old books i just returned to my local library.
1. 'borderlands of sanity' - thorkil vanggaard 1979, pp 237
(neuroses, schizophrenic borderline states and atypical endogenous depression)
2/3. 'psykoneuroser' - erling jacobsen 1965, pp 256 / pp 150
(danish, 2 volumes)
4. 'ego psychology' - gertrude and rubin blanck 1974, pp 395
(theory and practice)
5. 'borderline conditions and pathological narcissism' - otto f. kernberg 1975, pp 361
(a systematic analysis of the psychopathology, diagnosis, prognosis and treatment)
1. Geoffrey Buys A Tuxedo (fashion tome)
2. Ironing for Beginners (trade manual)
3. William on Stalking (diary of a loner)
4. William on Drinking (a lapsed alcoholic tells his sad story)
5. How to Have Lots of Affairs (Guide to Modern Living)
Please try these out, especially the last one. I think you could learn lots from it!!!
Love
Sue
yeah, well, errrrm, hum, yeah, ok, I dunno, articulation is not my fing, who cares, SHUT IT YOU MUPPET, blah blah blah
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annie blue
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:50 pm
- Location: In another thread
Re: Before You're Sixty-Four.
does anyone else think this is getting a tad weird? geoffrey, hang on to bitterness and you will always be sour. rise above it - as i have done twice - and you are a much better individual. how many times does a person have to say 'IT'S NOT REAL! IT'S A PIECE OF FICTION!' we all have minds and opinions of our own and an open forum here to express them, but don't you think that implying someone is in league with the devil is taking things too far, if not downright rude. whatever happened to you clearly hurt a lot, but you need to take your feelings of hurt, anger and rejection and put your energy into something more positive. maybe i'm just a naturally positive person but i've turned my life around 3times and i just think that the relationships i had before just weren't meant to be. i've always managed to come out smiling because i refuse to be beaten. i adapt. read my tag at the end of all my postings. i truly believe that, and god - should he exist - would believe that too.
i really hope you can move on and be happy. i really do.
i really hope you can move on and be happy. i really do.
I never answer, since it isn't you.