I agree 1000% [not a typo], Jurica; and this one is by no means over. I look forward to reading your input ! I hope that once we feel it "is" [does the analysis of a poem ever conclude any more than the poem/song itself does ?], we will go on with another poem of Leonard's. We could sure go into a lot with the Halloween Poem. Once I saw it was Leonard's and noted the nature of it, and then what had been written on it [unknowing of its being his], I thought of what a great one it would be to come under Sohbet's and then "our" unique form of analysis. Very interesting what Lightning said about its opening being in French, and the "frogs" with regard to the French , not to mention what Margaret said about The Favorite Game.
i went trough the whole thread, and i must say it is everything i expected, and more! Joe Way's comments are great, but the others are not far behind! i'll try to comment on as much subjects as i can right now, cause it's back to work tomorrow...
i've noticed there are quite a few Shakespeare fans here. i think they are as iritated as i am with 'modernizing' his works and changing everything but raw story (which is rarely what we love him for). but few days ago, i've seen a bulgarian documentary (there were some 'days of bulgarian movies' here) where some midle-aged teacher, working in a small vilage school, puts shakespeare's plays in their original form on 'stage' few times a year. his actors are school kids, and they only do shakespeare, but he makes them work on their roles until they are so good you wouldn't belive! i've put 'stage' under quotes, because their stage is vilage itself. they start in front of school, then go to old church, etc... and country people (the hard working sort) come to watch and enjoy! the whole vilage comes, and walks from scene to scene behind the acters. after Romeo and Juliet some oid peasent huged the teacher crying! it's something you wouldn't belive!
back to the poem.
there were so many wonderful insihgts already, though the whole interpretation in its begining went the other way from how i read it.
i think that the main subject here is not luck, but rather predetermination. when i hear a word 'errand', i don't see a picture of a philantopist, as he appears in the poem, but someone who goes where they tell him not because he wants to help, but rather because he wants to please. it's for his, not their good. he expects pay, in this (money) or other (acceptance, reciprocity, thankfulness) way. that's way i think most part of the song is ironic.
i think what he's saying is (the 'other words' form that sohbet introduced to us): if you are lucky this life of yours will LOOK as if it was a good and productive thing, but you'll still be this miserable little being that was born against it's will, that lives against it's will, and will die against it's will. in best case you can be an errand - you'll do as you are supposed to do; run trough your life at great speed, obey society's norms, and whip to your death. nothing more can a man have. no spiritual enlightment, no 'everlasting love'... in the best case you'll have enough luck (las vegas - success in life is a gamble?) to get those sun glasses (remember how world changes colors trough sunglasses? - i think that's what they are supposed to do to him - change colors of this bleak, grey world) that will bring you money (gold rims) and appearance of happy life. the other option is life of poverty, but in the end - it comes down to the same.
i'll quote (as it became popular to quote poets) a great croatian singer/songwriter Arsen Dedic (my own poor translation):
don't take me to see "The Spruce Goose"
famous airplane, owner: Howard Hughs;
i'm just like him, my dear,
but where do i get money
for an airplane?
i'll end just like Howard Hughes:
darkness of forties,
blues on the radio
i'll end just like Howard Hughes...
I would love to see that film that you speak of.....another great, innovative teacher! And what a lovely way to connect with the community. I can't recall exactly how the saying goes, but it's to the effect of "If Muhammed can't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to Muhammed." I can only relate it directly, in this case, to the teacher bringing Live [and excellent ~ both content and skill] theatre to the villagers, including those who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it, to pay to go see such a wonderful production. So alive in its "naturalized" environment, too. No props, backdrops, or extras needed. All inherent. The hugging scene had to be very touching.
And your own, great addition to this thread. Your interpretation is so well-supported in the way that you relate it! Very well-presented! "When it all comes down to dust...." and Dedic's song with Howard Hughes is a perfect one to use for your example. I like your insightfulness and how you bring it all together so cogently, in your "other words." It's a bleaker take on it, yet not unlike Leonard at all to write in ironic bleakness. With your explanations, I can see how you've pulled out of it what you have. I'm so glad you joined in. Proof-positive that it's never too late for another perspective!
Love,
Lizzytysh
I look forward to Sohbet's comments on your posting .
Dear Jurica,
Your insights are very acute. I found your reading of this poem very interesting and it presented some aspects that I had not considered before. The whole issue between choice/pre-deterimation is a rich subject and one which LC, both through his upbringing and his Zen training has considered at length.
One of the issues in regard to one's world view in this regard is the role of luck. A poem that I admired from Thomas Hardy called, "Hap" deals with the Nineteenth century notion that chance has usurped a Deity and offers little comfort.
"If but some vengeful god would call to me
From up the sky, and laugh: "Though suffering thing,
Know that they sorrow is my ectasy,
That thy love's loss is my hate's profiting."
"Then would I bear it, clench myself, and die,
Steeled by the sense of the unmerited;
Half-eased in that a Powerfuller than I
Had willed and meted me the tears I shed."
"But not so. How arrives it joy lies slain,
And why unblooms the best hope ever sown?
-Crass Casualty obstructs the sun and rain,
And dicing Time for Gladness casts a moan....
These purblind Doomsters had as readily strown
Blisses about my pilgrimage as pain." (1866, 1898)
To what would the narrator in "A Life of Errands" attribute his circumstances?
In "A Life of Errands," the narrator's two significant sorrows-that he has not found true love and has not found spiritual fulfillment-are masked in the "gratitude" that is expressed.
One other aspect has continued to intrigue me. As I mentioned previously, I believe that the figure of Tiresias as a seer is significant to a deeper understanding of the poem. In this regard, it is quite interesting that the narrator's verbal tense, although I don't know the technical name for it is a future tense. As you mentioned very early on, the action takes place in the future. However, it is also clear that the actions that the narrator expresses are so vivid that they have obviously been experienced or "lived" previously. I am not any sort of expert on Zen Buddhism but my understanding of some of the principles regarding reincarnation and enlightenment revolve around reliving the experience and finally understanding it to the degree that goes beyond normal acceptance. "Shantih, Shantih, Shantih" as Eliot quotes-the peace that goes beyond understanding.
One other aspect of the poem strikes me, and purely from the "Pater familias" standoint. Having two daughters, roughly in Adam and Lorca's age group, I am touched by how close this poem comes to my actual experience with them. Most of whatever wisdom I could have imparted to them has long ago gone under the bridge; now, what I can bring to them is the fulfillment of errands much like our narrator has expressed. The accomplishment of these errands leads not only to helpful aspects of their existence, but adds to my own sense of worth. Sometimes, it is just better to have retrieved some lost object than to present the "casuality" of the universe. The narrator's errands bring a lot more than some "purblind doomster."
I, also, hope to someday see the Bulgarian films. It gives me enormous pleasure to discuss this poem with not only you, but others across the wide expanse of our globe. The Howard Hughes reference was quite entertaining and get all the Shakespeare that you can!
Hi to All~
I had forgotten to check in here for a while; and I see some very interesting things have emerged. Jurica, your perspectives were most interesting and certainly valid; remembering, every person's inferrence can be equally true in mystic works like this (within reason, of course, as Sohbet pointed out). However, the perspective that 'clinched' it for me was Joe's. Joe mentioned the satisfaction of doing those kinds of 'errands' for his grown children; and that's the 'level' that resonates with me. We'll do things for loved ones, friends, family, neighbours etc. without thought of inconvenience, or reward; just "gratitude" for the opportunity.
As Linmag and Byron noted, also, the sunglasses can take on more significance if they belong to a loved one who needs them for a light-sensitivity or eye condition. Furthermore, they don't even have to be 'prescription' to be hard to replace quickly. An example that comes to mind is the brand of patented sunglasses (sold only by mail-order here) called "Eagle-Eyes". These glasses are supposed to duplicate the unique qualities of the lense in an eagle's eye, so that everything becomes clearer & sharper while actually relaxing the eyes. They do come in a "gold-rimmed" style also. That's not to suggest this is 'literally' what it's about, of course.
Just another thought on a string of very interesting and thoughtful ones I've read here.
Jurica, the Shakespeare 'experience' you described sounds fabulous!
Your thoughts on the Shakespeare aspect of the poem struck a chord with me. There seems to be a faint resemblance to Jacques' monologue in As You Like It. I mean particularly Leonard's lines about his age.
Juliette~
Yes, I think I know the one you mean, from As You Like It. That's the one that begins:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages."..........
"Last scene of all......
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."
(That last line was a family in-joke with my grandparents)
I was absent for several days and now it’s a great pleasure to see how many new perspectives have arisen here! I completely agree with all of you – Jurica’s reading was really interesting; it revealed some levels of meaning I didn’t find in the poem before, as well. Dear Jurica, thanks!
And also I’d like to say I was impressed by Linmag’s commentary (I’ve read it the day when it was posted here but had no time to talk about it so do it now, with some lateness).
Dear Linmag, it was amazing interpretation of the metaphor – sunglasses as poets! The glasses as something that helps us to see really have that reference to the poetry as one of the ways to “see” the world. And sometimes it’s considered to be the one and only true way. For example, we can recall here Heidegger’s works where, calling the language “home of Being”, he claimed Being told itself with the language of poetry; it’s poetry that instead of “describing” and “classifying” things as “objects of cognition” (percepts, subjects of inquiry, extensions, operands, etc. – everything whatever you want) which are opposed to the manipulating “cognizing subject” tells us how the things are and therefore allows us to “see” or, to be exact, “hear” the Being itself.
And maybe I’d rather compare sunglasses with poems (hmm, actually, poems with sunglasses, of course!). Poet goes through the “desert” - long, painful way of loneliness - in order to find the most exact, right words to tell that “truth of being”…
But where does he find them?
Joe, writing about the nature of luck, has drawn remarkable parallels with some other LC’ works where the "odd or the even" theme was raised. And that “dollar slot machine” in Las Vegas mentioned here is, of course, an image that makes us think of some place where one tries to “catch” a stroke of luck – but can be “caught” by a mucker and disappointment, as well. And an image of “Boogie Street” comes into the head – a symbol of life itself in its “non-ideal” aspect, quite funny but at the same time cruel “place to be” - a symbol of “vanity of vanities” in a certain sense…
And also we can see here life that looks like a lost-property office – with all the lost illusions, hopes, and ideals which, being “sifted through” by the poet, become that “truth of the being”, as well …
[Dear Linmag and Joe, excuse me, please, this “unceremonious treatment” of your interpretations. It isn’t so that I tried to alter or distort your ideas somehow – I only tried to share understanding that was influenced by them.]
****************
And now I’d like to ask one little question. It has no connection with the subject of our discussion but as my favourite song, A Thousand Kisses Deep, was referred here I’ll put it, yet.
It’s about the word-combination “the odds are there to beat”.
I interpreted it in following ways:
(1) “Odds and evens” are the symbols of fortune and failure. I don’t know exactly, but it seems to me there was a game or a kind of fortune-telling connected with them. At least in the Chinese I-Tszin (don’t know right English spelling, sorry), as far as I remember, “odds” considered as a symbol of all the positive, favourable, connected with the “male” principle; and the fortune-telling here may be carried out by flipping coins. And “to beat odds” may mean something like “to flip coins so that the odd will fall”. So “odds are there to beat” mean such a fortune state of affairs that every flip of a coin will end with “odds”.
(2) If consider “odds”=“chances” and “to beat”=“to win” then it may mean that there are all the chances to win.
But I’ve read recently “to beat odds” means “to wager”. And since the source of information wasn’t reliable I’d like to ask what kind of interpretation would be correct here.
Last edited by Helven on Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
You're such a delight, your postings such a pleasure to read, and you continue to amaze me with your thought processes. Amongst everything else, this I love:
"And also we can see here life that looks like a lost-property office - with all the lost illusions, hopes, and ideals which, being 'sifted through' by the poet, become that 'truth of the being', as well..."
I can't focus on your question right now, but I trust someone else surely will. See you later.
Love,
Elizabeth
Last edited by lizzytysh on Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the warm words!
I’m waiting for someone else’s answer. But now I have a new question. I’ve found in your posting two enigmatic sign combinations - – and …. I encountered such things here before and was completely intrigued by them. Would you tell me, please, what do they mean?
Love,
TH
Last edited by Helven on Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
Aha! That's what happened when I copied and pasted your quote ~ I can't believe how that transposed like that ~ well, I'll just need to go and correct that! It sure made a big deal over a hyphen and an ellipses, didn't it ? So, you like my "worm" words, eh? [tee-hee].
Love,
Lizzy
I also really like the way your and Linmag's interpretations of the sunglasses came together.
[OK ~ it's better now! And great to see you back!]
Hi all,
Helven, you have again intrigued me to post more, when I thought that I was almost done commenting on this poem.
I can't say that I am a student of Heidegger but I have a vague notion to what you are referring. It has made me think of this poem at a more elemental level where the narrator, who is clearly a poet, thinks about the nature of his life. I saw an interview with Leonard from around the same time that this poem was written. In it, he takes a phone call from a veteranarian about one of Lorca's dogs. He has clearly been the one who took the dog to the vet and is now reporting to Lorca the outcome and prognosis for the dog (Nova, I assume).
As a poet songwriter, Leonard has the time and the ability to take care of things like this, more than the ordinary working man would have accomplishing a similar task. By the same token, during the years that he toured, he would have been away from home and unable to help his family in this regard. Also in that interview, he talked about going to the Monastary on Mt. Baldy and the reasons that he was drawn there. Some of this had to do with his "secret" life which was quite empty. He mentioned that he would go days without interacting with anyone and the monastery life gave him the opportunity to have a "disciplined" social life where he was part of a community, but at the same time, with silence, didn't have to make small talk. A life of errands seems to fit very well into this particular life style choice. Particularly good for a poet, it would seem to me.
As for the nature of "odds and evens," it struck me that the nature of luck over the long term evens itself out. One can have a "winning streak" but eventually one returns and faces that "invincible defeat." Whoever it was who lost the glasses, may have been winning or losing enough to distract them to the point that their "vision" suffered from the loss of the darkening shades, but the poet in his errands can recover this and at least, for himself, can see the truth in those gold rimmed frames.
Belated thanks to both Lizzy and Makera for your kind words. I think I was posting simultaneously to you and didn't originally see your posts.
Elizabeth!!! Sorry!!! I’ve corrected my mistake. Of course, as you undoubtedly understand, there were meant “warm words” but not “worm” ones! [I’ve made myself ill with laughing at my “marvelous” literacy!]
Joe, thank you very much for the response. I’m not able to tell now any meaning-bearing words – I’ve “killed” myself with that “worm words” [it was like a kind of Zen practice of thinking over paradoxical questions – no words, no thoughts, and pure awareness ]. So just thank you!
Love,
Tanya.
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
Yes, Helven, I knew exactly what you meant and appreciated it. I got a great laugh out of it, too . I would have contacted you privately [and maybe should have ~ with your faces, as I certainly didn't mean to embarrass you, and apologize if I did], but it seemed like such a fun typo for you to have made, and since I knew others would also know what you meant, I just decided to play with it a little . I loved it! Sorry it temporarily incapacitated you for responding to Joe, however . I know you'll be back later .
About A Thousand Kisses Deep. I think the 'odds' are to do with betting at a race track, and ties in with "The ponies run". Does that help at all?
I meant the sunglasses as a metaphor for poetry rather than the poet himself (though either works). Poetry gives us a different way of looking at the world, perhaps of perceiving things we would have been unable to see clearly unaided. The journey through the desert could then be a metaphor for the arduous task of writing the poem. Leonard always seeks to tell the truth in his work, so the 'no sir, I am not lying' would be something he would want to be able to say about all his poems.
Linda
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
! I hope that once we feel it "is" [does the analysis of a poem ever conclude any more than the poem/song itself does 
?], we will go on with another poem of Leonard's. We could sure go into a lot with the Halloween Poem. Once I saw it was Leonard's and noted the nature of it, and then what had been written on it [unknowing of its being his], I thought of what a great one it would be to come under Sohbet's and then "our" unique form of analysis. Very interesting what Lightning said about its opening being in French, and the "frogs" with regard to the French 
I’ve found in your posting two enigmatic sign combinations - – and …. I encountered such things here before and was completely intrigued by them. 
Would you tell me, please, what do they mean? 
