leonardcohenforum.com

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:28 am**

Myra wrote:Ahhhh.
I bet that feels better now doesn't it Greg.

That may be a very astute comment in general
It's certainly cynical. And a very stygian take on human nature.
But you do me a real wrong to think it of me.
And my answer is 'no'. A definite 'no'.
No - I do not do schadenfreude.

Myra wrote:What if Casey was somebody real

I was way ahead of you about that.
But you will have wait until later before I tell you
how I mean it in this particular case.

For now, I just want to mention that if you check out
the "Other Poetry" section, from about a year ago,
then you'll see that I posted this:

I still believe

It's a wonder I haven't abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd
and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything,
that people are truly good at heart.

It's utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering
and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness, I hear
the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, I feel the suffering
of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything
will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility
will return once more.

- Anne Frank, July 15, 1944

The first movie version of The Diary of Anne Franke, the one with Millie Perkins,
- 1959, - had very strong effect on me as a kid. An effect that continues.

I was very young when I first saw it. Probably way too young to see movies
like that. (On The Beach and Green Mansions were two others I saw that
same year. I had a lot of nightmares that year.)

Two things from that movie affected me the most.
One was the overlaid images of marching soldiers
-

ech·e·lon, n.
2. a formation of troops, ships, airplanes, etc., in which groups of soldiers
or individual vehicles or craft are arranged in parallel lines, each to the right
or left of the one in front, so that the whole presents the appearance of steps.

(I think that means superimposed lattices (in the technical sense.))

It's a cliched movie sequence, of course, but I had never seen anything like it.
Human beings reduced to a machine. It was terrifying. And I am not sure
I have ever seen anything more so. But I found a way to cope with it,
right away.

As those images played in my mind, and wouldn't let me get to sleep,
I tried to figure out if a straight line could shoot through a lattice like that,
at an angle, and not hit any one of the points (soldiers).

And that was the beginning of my interest in math, - which would always
be a refuge for me from the world when it got to be too much.
(The answer, btw, -which may seem counter-intuitive,
is that "almost all" lines do miss all the points. It's simply
the difference between rational and irrational numbers.
(It's counter-intuitive because if the "points" aren't true
points, but rather have any thickness at all, then every line
hits an infinity of "points".)

The other thing, of course, was -

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

Probably because I had a crush on Millie Perkins,
I knew that that had to be true. But it would take me years
to figure out in what way it's true.
Because it is counter-intuitive.

The clue was "The Godfather".
Because even the mafia has great "family values".

I don't think I ever met a total sociopath. And, although
I have known some very bad people, every one of them
was good to somebody.

Everybody is motivated by some kind of humanity.
It's just not always, - or ever, - total.
(Especially those who claim pan-humanity-philia
(--somebody help me out here - a word for "love of all mankind" ?)
In fact they're the very type who often don't like anybody in particular. )

One common humanity comonality that occurred to me a long time ago
is that two of the greatest drives in human beings
are the need to teach, and the need to be useful.
--- To pass on wisdom to the next generation.
--- To teach the children well.

Corollary: Everybody needs to know something that not everybody else knows.
(Because you can't be a very useful teacher
if everybody already knows everything you do. )

And one thing that many people feel a need to teach
is what it feels like to be them. Particularly when they
feel they've been wronged.

Corollary: Random violence is never really random.

(It's a mystery to many people why some people who seek revenge
don't always limit their retaliation to the specific people who caused them
the harm. However, what they are really doing is teaching the world
what it feels like to be them. Because what it feels like to be them
is to be picked out and picked on for no good reason. They didn't do
anything wrong. They were picked at random. Perhaps because
they looked funny. But not because they harmed anybody.
So, to teach the world what that feels like, they can't limit
their retaliation to the specific people who tormented them.
The only way to teach what it feels like to be randomly
picked out and tormented - is to pick their victims at random.)

Etc.
And so on.

Or that kind of reasoning, anyway,
seems to me to explain a lot of things.
And in particular it seemed to me to explain and to confirm
Anne Franke's insight.

I'll say later how it applies here.

For now I'm just going to say that I always take it as axiomatic
that everybody, such as Casey and John, is fine people

After all everybody here does appreciate Leonard Cohen.
Which is the sine qua non for a person to be fine.

It takes an awful lot to trip my trip-wires.
But the very first thing it takes is for me to decided,
by some reasoning which is a mystery to my conscous mind,
that the person can take it -- my apparent criticisms.
Although I do not crticise people. And I am not sarcastic,
But I know that some people think I do. And am.
But they're wrong. What they see as sarcasm in me
is simply my Joie De Vivre-section.
{Insert a neat Nietzsche quote here. Any Nietzsche quote.}

If I say for example that Casey and John are posturing,
I don't mean that they are posturing. Because I have
no idea who they are. You (Myra) for example decided
Casey was one way, and then later decided he could be
another way instead - and that way lies madness! Because you'll
never know what anybody is really like. And if that matters to
you then you can never respond to anything, even things
that demand to be responded to.

All you know is what's been written. When I say that Casey and John
are posturing, it's just a short-hand way of saying that their writing
is posturing. And the only way they could take offence at that
is if they are too much attached to their writing - if they are
"True believers". Manna, for example could never take offence
if I said that that Casey's and John's writing is posturing.
Because Manna isn't attached to it. And neither should they be.

And if they intend it it as a contribution, and not as preaching,
then they wouldn't be.

Also, while I haven't looked very carefully, I haven't noticed
that either of them have said anything at all personal.
They may think they have, but if you compare their writing
to that of Jack Lazariuk, who sometimes writes here,
or to the blindered pbshel67, you'll see the difference.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:24 am**

~greg wrote:I haven't noticed
that either of them have said anything at all personal.
They may think they have, but if you compare their writing
to that of Jack Lazariuk, who sometimes writes here,
or to the blindered pbshel67, you'll see the difference.

Actually everything I've said is deeply personal, and from my heart. All of me is out here, available... just ask.

What would Anne Franke be typing to you, after all...

I suppose I was born a posturing hypocrite, and as long as I live I'll be a posturing hypocrite, but I have learned that I don't have to let my boundless hypocricy shut me up anymore.

Casey

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:41 am**

ech·e·lon, n.
2. a formation of troops, ships, airplanes, etc., in which groups of soldiers
or individual vehicles or craft are arranged in parallel lines, each to the right
or left of the one in front, so that the whole presents the appearance of steps.

(I think that means superimposed lattices (in the technical sense.))

I think it means this:

Code: Select all

     *
    * *
   *   *
  *     *

or this:

Code: Select all

     *
    ***
   *****
  *******

I think what you mean is this:

Code: Select all

***** ***** *****
***** ***** *****
***** ***** *****
***** ***** *****

It may mean this:

Code: Select all

***** ***** *****
   ***** ***** *****
      ***** ***** *****
         ***** ***** *****

or 

***************
   ***************
      ***************
         ***************

or

*****
**********
***************
********************

?
though I've never seen military stuff arranged like that.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:44 am**

Hey, if it's not been said before, I'm copyrighting it now:

"If the hypocrites don't stand up, nobody ever will."

Casey

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:39 am**

~greg wrote:
Myra wrote:Ahhhh.
I bet that feels better now doesn't it Greg.
That may be a very astute comment in general
It's certainly cynical. And a very stygian take on human nature.
But you do me a real wrong to think it of me.
And my answer is 'no'. A definite 'no'.
No - I do not do schadenfreude.

Just a quick note because I don't want you to think that is what I was thinking.
It wasn't, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic and later when I was trying to be sarcastic,
really I was trying to be playful. That's why I called you a tree - I don't really know you but you
seem good humoured.

I was speaking through my own eyes - I know that when I hold something in - bottle it up (quite the cliche - eh) it feels stifling. When I express myself it feels good. Okay, sometimes maybe I rant for a minute or two, but when I do I'm not being mean - I don't think you were either, and I'm not taking pleasure in other peoples misfortunes (thank goodness for google) - I don't think you were either.

So far, I find you quite likable.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:44 am**

Casey Butler wrote:Hey, if it's not been said before, I'm copyrighting it now:

"If the hypocrites don't stand up, nobody ever will."

Casey

Hi Casey - were you standing or sitting when you said this?

myself - I spend much to much time on my feet.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:18 am**

Myra wrote:
Casey Butler wrote:Hey, if it's not been said before, I'm copyrighting it now:

"If the hypocrites don't stand up, nobody ever will."

Casey
Hi Casey - were you standing or sitting when you said this?

myself - I spend much to much time on my feet.

Standing out on the back porch, smoking, when I thought of it...

Sitting when I typed it.

And I just stood up to say it.

So I was standing when I said it.

Casey

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:36 am**

~greg wrote:
I still believe

It's a wonder I haven't abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd
and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything,
that people are truly good at heart.

It's utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering
and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness, I hear
the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, I feel the suffering
of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything
will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility
will return once more.

- Anne Frank, July 15, 1944
The first movie version of The Diary of Anne Franke, the one with Millie Perkins,
- 1959, - had very strong effect on me as a kid. An effect that continues.

This has been bothering me all evening, I'll have you know.

Now Anne Frank is long dead... Yet American troops and authorities are performing the exact same atrocities on young girls both in Iraq and Texas right now, terrifying them, persecuting them because of their religion, politics, or whatever, breaking up families, killing parents quashing dreams.

How many Iraqi "terrorists" - or freedom fighters as we used to call them - have young daughters who must hide themselves away in fear constantly because of what our tax dollars support and our spines are too weak to stand up and change?

Have you ever bothered reading the blogs of young Iraqis, or listening to the tears of young FLDS we're seeing every night - or were you so traumatized by Anne Frank the movie when you were a kid that you just can't handle the reality of what you've become yourself in your old age?

Anne Frank would be out here giving you hell, ~greg, just so you know.

I don't think your marvelous dry wit would charm her like it does the rest of us. I think her hope would get in the way of that...

I think I like ~greg the child better than I like ~greg the sophisticated.

Casey

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:25 pm**

Casey: Actually my inner knowledge and understanding came from the books - LONG before I read them... Where did your inner knowledge and understanding come from, John?

Might I suggest yours may be a little incomplete... that it may be based on hearsay and mystic renderings of the poets... and that you will trust it better if you know what the witnesses are trying to testify to and what the poets are trying to write about?

Just a suggestion... not a criticism.

Again, I'm not a liar (edited to add: "on my good days, well... most of the time"). Please don't mischaractarize what I'm saying, for I truly do trust my own inner knowledge and understanding.

I've just chosen not to put limits on it.
Casey

Exactly Casey – your Inner knowledge and understanding came long before you read the books – it is there for all to see – it is there from before you are born – it is there after you die.

Inner knowledge is the same for all – no ones can be incomplete. Mine is not based on the words of poets – it is based on that I am ‘part’ of God… and I share in the Miracle that needs no written words in order to see the blaze of light.

You believe that ‘God’ is Everything – which we agree – then all I say can not be nonsense.. for, I am part of God. I am part of the truth and I am part of that very Inner Knowledge and Understanding – not separate from it.

There are no limits in what I say – only limits to the imagination – if, you can only accept what you say to be fact, and what I say to be incomplete. The difference is – I know you are right Casey – BUT – you are unable to see that I am also right.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:31 pm**

I'm glad it's not that simple...

There's no way out, John. You've chosen ignorance of the roots of other people, plain and simple, then turned around and condemned the basis of their religion out of hand along with George Bush and Pat Robertson.

If you had been born with inner knowledge you would already know that Muhammad's Muslims are God's people following God's Word, and Moses' Jews are God's people following God's Word, and Jesus' Christians are God's people following God's Word, and all the rest who see Light in those books you can't be bothered with, right? And if you know from the inner knowledge you already had when you were one year old that they're God's people, you would be very interested in what God has to say through them all, every one of them who sacrificed that those books might be available to you... especially one Jesus who claimed the Words to be Truth. Knowledge craves more knowledge after all... I've found.

Or maybe you could just tell me... What does your inner knowledge tell you should be done about this long drawn out disagreement between Jews, Christians, and Muslims without holding them all to what it says in these books? It has to be better than the George Bush solution.

Casey

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:03 pm**

Casey: I'm glad it's not that simple...

There's no way out, John. You've chosen ignorance of the roots of other people, plain and simple, then turned around and condemned the basis of their religion out of hand along with George Bush and Pat Robertson.

If you had been born with inner knowledge you would already know that Muhammad's Muslims are God's people following God's Word, and Moses' Jews are God's people following God's Word, and Jesus' Christians are God's people following God's Word, and all the rest who see Light in those books you can't be bothered with, right? And if you know from the inner knowledge you already had when you were one year old that they're God's people, you would be very interested in what God has to say through them all, every one of them who sacrificed that those books might be available to you... especially one Jesus who claimed the Words to be Truth. Knowledge craves more knowledge after all... I've found.

Or maybe you could just tell me... What does your inner knowledge tell you should be done about this long drawn out disagreement between Jews, Christians, and Muslims without holding them all to what it says in these books? It has to be better than the George Bush solution.

Casey

Again Casey – I do not believe that your Allah or Yahweh are the one true God – only part of God. I do not believe that these books or their prophets are perfect and beyond reproach. But.. I have also said that If they give you hope – then by all means listen and follow and praise. Remember – the God I believe in has no name and wants no worship and praise – so – we are not speaking of the same God.

As you are well aware – Jesus wrote nothing. Jesus is the foundation for Christianity – but – others added what they wanted and may have even misconstrued some of his very words. These books are part of the Truth – but not THE ENTIRE TRUTH.

The long drawn out disagreement between the Jews and Christians and Muslims is ‘because of’ the very Torah and Koran and Bible that you hold true. Muslims believe their God to be the same God as in the OT and NT. You will find very few Jews and Christians that hold this belief. Christians believe that their God is the God of the OT BUT Most Jews do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ and feel their Religion was hijacked. For Peace to become a reality there must be one religion that encompasses all religions… one where ‘all’ can agree on ‘God’ not just the three mentioned. Or….no religion – at least not as religion is currently known. Until that day comes there will be no long lasting peace. Depending on who you are - You can blame Bush, you can blame Israel, you can blame Pakistan, you can blame everything, you can blame nothing and no one BUT first and foremost you need to blame yourself – for any powerlessness that is felt in any way is of your own creation - this needs to be realized before you board the ship of fools.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:29 pm**

The people who wrote those books
were also probably trusting their own innermost voice,
and calling it God.

That seems to be the case with at least some of the authors.
You can trust your own experience, and that is a fine way to go about life.

And sometimes you may come across someone or something
that seems to convey his.her.its experience very well,
and you may allow yourself to learn things from that one.
And that is also a fine way to go about life.

No matter your source, no matter what you learn,
you are learning about God.
You don't have to call it that if you don't want to.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:58 pm**

Manna: The people who wrote those books
were also probably trusting their own innermost voice,
and calling it God.

That seems to be the case with at least some of the authors.
You can trust your own experience, and that is a fine way to go about life.

And sometimes you may come across someone or something
that seems to convey his.her.its experience very well,
and you may allow yourself to learn things from that one.
And that is also a fine way to go about life.

No matter your source, no matter what you learn,
you are learning about God.
You don't have to call it that if you don't want to.

The problems arise when that innermost voice or that something that someone comes across that conveys the experiences very well… shout out – My Way is the Only Way! Follow or else! That is where Casey and I have parted ways.

Any path that tries to steer me in that direction I shun – BUT – that is just Me, myself and I. As I have said to Casey – If the path he is on brings him enlightenment and helps him understand and feel at ease – then – God bless him and his journey. I only choose a different path.

There is only ‘one way’ according to many holy books – and unfortunately, once one becomes a follower of such dogma, that dogma becomes part of them, and when they hear something, anything that does not match with that belief system they will only say – That is wrong! My Way is the only Way! – My Truth is the only Truth! – My God is the only God!

Now… at first view it may appear that I have been no different – “Your God is only ‘part’ of God”, “Your Truth is only ‘part’ of the Truth”, “Your way is ‘not’ the only way”.. – however - I have denied no path as being a true path, I have denied no God as being a true God, I have denied no person their right to choose - I have declared that the Truth is a combination of Everything, I have declared that I truly enjoy the thoughts of all Religions and the thoughts of all Atheists and Agnostics, and most of all – I have declared that I am ‘part’ of God – but no more than you - We all share in the Miracle that needs no written words in order to see the blaze of light. But, of course, there are written words that can be described as a blaze of light – and..If it be your will.. read them and learn from them and may they guide those and light the path for those that have trusted them on their journey.

And Jesus was a sailor
When he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching
From his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain
Only drowning men could see him
He said "All men will be sailors then
Until the sea shall free them"
But he himself was broken
Long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human
He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone
And you want to travel with him
And you want to travel blind
And you think maybe you'll trust him
For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:19 am**

john.m.lake wrote:These books are part of the Truth – but not THE ENTIRE TRUTH.

Sometimes I wonder whom you're addressing... Perhaps you don't intend to, but you put words in my mouth that I haven't said. it's a bit like you have a picture in your mind of people who read these books, what they are and what they believe, and nothing I can do or say can separate myself from that picture.

Truth is made up of good and evil. If we take a snapshot of the world today that will convey the Truth about us to those living 2000 years from now, that snapshot would have to contain our best description of it all: The good, the evil, the truth, the lies, the hate, the love, the greed, the charity, the wars, the peace, the hopes, and the dreams. The best description we are capable of today.

And would it not be up to those people 2000 years from now to reason out for themselves exactly what part of that snapshot was from God and what was not, and figure out why what was not from God was actually represented in our snapshot as from God?

The Bible is a rough snapshot of Israel up to Jesus, and contains all of those things and more about the God of Israel, the Creator of the earth, it is recorded.

As such, it is certainly the Truth about God from the men and women who were Israel up to that point in time, and it's up to us 2000 years later to read it for the first time without preconceptions - or reliance on religion or religious doctrine or religious commentary - and reason out just what was and was not from the God that might have created us.

And yes, our inner Unified Heart today, a Heart paid for at such cost in suffering and blood, with the knowledge gained from all of these books, can arrive at the Truth of the God of Israel from our reading these books objectively ourselves for the first time ever without religious input.

Everything Jesus learned He learned from these scriptures and from life.

He said:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 14:16] "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." [KJV-Bible - John 17:17]

What did He mean? How did Jesus fall beneath your wisdom like a stone?

You can make Him a mystery forever, of course. You have articulated His purpose well with the inner knowledge you have gained from His imperfect servants - both good and evil.

Jesus is our Man, He'll be anything we want Him to be, any kind of lover at all, and when we're ready, He'll lead every one of us to God... He won't lose a single one of us.

Like a Bird on a wire, like a Beast with His Horn....

It's all in the Bible, and it's all about God.

Today it's all about His servants...

Bear with me a moment: Should the sky fill with "angels" and Jesus return alive through some parallel universe or wherever for every eye to see, who is snared, who will be terrified of judgment, who will be shamed for their envy of people God loves so much He would wait for them to come around?

You and I are okay, your "inner knowledge" and my "inner knowledge" will see us through such an event fine, thanks to our Man Jesus... So it's not about us any more...

I see it clear
I always knew
It was never me
I was there for you
I was there for you
My darling one
And by your law
It all was done

It's always been about the servants of God, not their scapegoats.

As Paul wrote about the servants of God in his day:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

"For this (is) my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"As concerning the gospel, (they are) enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, (they are) beloved for the fathers' sakes."

"For the gifts and calling of God (are) without repentance."

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:"

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable (are) his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" [KJV-Bible - Romans 11:25-33]

Hardly anything in these books is what it's believed to be as interpreted by God's servants. The Light Bearers, born of the fire who refuse to bow down to those made of clay, see what they want to see. Try to understand, it's all backwards: the good are the evil are the good.

We're okay because she's taught us God's Mercy, but where is our Mercy as we watch that locomotive bearing down on her, this love of Leonard Cohen's life?

"Just one more step... just one more step..." - Jeff Chandler, Merill's Marauders

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:13 pm**

I'm just going to pretend this a family table and talk to Greg while you guys are chatting.

Hey Greg

(The answer, btw, -which may seem counter-intuitive,
is that "almost all" lines do miss all the points. It's simply
the difference between rational and irrational numbers.
(It's counter-intuitive because if the "points" aren't true
points, but rather have any thickness at all, then every line
hits an infinity of "points".)

I’m going to have to take your word on this. Your straight line would need to be parallel to their line – a lattice looks like
XXXX
XXXX

Yes, I the blank spots were the men and the and the lines the line of fire you would shot straight through the group as long as people stayed still. Interesting thought to fall asleep to though.

The other thing, of course, was -

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

Probably because I had a crush on Millie Perkins,
I knew that that had to be true. But it would take me years
to figure out in what way it's true.
Because it is counter-intuitive.

This is a very interesting question - not, are people good or bad – is it counter-intuitive to think that they are good? I’m not sure.
I only lock my house door if we’re sleeping or going to be out for a while. I never lock my car, although I know I should. In general I find that people are usually kind and are often helpful. I am cautious of people though and not always the most trusting.
I think we expect good from people, when someone does something not good it stands so that we see the bad easier than the good. I’m going to think about that some more it’s an interesting thought.

You (Myra) for example decided
Casey was one way, and then later decided he could be
another way instead - and that way lies madness! Because you'll
never know what anybody is really like. And if that matters to
you then you can never respond to anything, even things
that demand to be responded to.

‘Madness!’ hehe… Deciding who a person is and then never changing my view doesn’t mean that I know who that person is. I have very few set opinions about anything – I don’t even have a favourite colour. I do have a few things that I’m passionate about, but even here, there are only a couple issues that I know I’m right and opposing opinions are misguided.

In response to responding.
It’s good to know some traits and opinions of people so that I can gear my words or actions to that person, but I’m not sure if I care what they’re really like. What I care about, is getting the result that I want. (I’m assuming would not be responding to a friend – different story then)

leonardcohenforum.com

The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God

Re: The word and the voice of God