Book of Mercy #27-28

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
DBCohen
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by DBCohen »

mat james wrote:
He is suggesting, I think, that no one can own creation.
I agree, but he also seems to speak on a different level too. There is the level of human nature, but there is also the level of the politics of nations, all of which, according to him, are doing wrong by misusing the Law (well-known hypocrisy). He seems to require spiritual righteousness on the level of the nation, which is of course an impossible Utopia, but that’s why he speaks here in the language of the prophets. The prophets condemned specific behavior of people and nations, but what they suggested as a remedy is often Utopian. Still, we need these words and ideas, quixotic as they me be, to lift us a little above our immediate horizon.

*
Manna,

I’m glad to make your acquaintance, in both nickname and full name (and photo). Names are a really fascinating subject.

*
Joe,

Thanks for that beautiful musical rendering. The translation of Psalms I’ve mentioned is not on the Internet, but perhaps the book is in your School’s library. If you Google: Robert Alter Psalms, you’ll find many reviews, interviews etc. I’m not saying that it is necessarily my favorite translation, but it is a very interesting one, and to people unfamiliar with the Hebrew original it might hold many surprising insights into what the Psalms are supposed to sound like and what do they mean.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

I have just read this verse again
Are you sure this 11.27 was written by Leonard?
It sounds like he stole it from Cat Stephens.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

Mat . Your natural inclination of being a fun guy can sure touch on some peculiar areas.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

mat james wrote:
He is suggesting, I think, that no one can own creation.
Your comment causes me to keep in mind that one day we might, or what's left of it. The original promise from God was "I will give the land to your seed" not "loan you the land" not "get you to take care of the land" but "give the land"

Jack

"Our hope is in a distant seed" Leonard Cohen
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
Manna
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by Manna »

Matj wrote:Leonard seems to be saying clearly that we kid ourselves if we think "we own" the land.
Does an ant that survives on a hill "own it"?
Or a donkey?
or a man?

He is suggesting, I think, that no one can own creation.
That works as an interpretation, but I just read it again, and it's not so clear to me that that is what he's saying. It also may not be clear to me exactly what you're saying. Since ants live on ant hills, I wasn't sure if you were talking about ants owning the ant hill or if you were talking about an ant hill on something like Chapel Hill, and that the ants don't own Chapel Hill. We do take at least partial ownership of the land where we live. I don't even try to stop birds and mice from living in my yard, but I do mow, and I don't know what I'd do if a group of Nomads came and set up camp in my yard. I call it my yard, my house.

The idea that I got from Leonard's passage was about stealing the land from people who were there first. From the Norman invasion of England to the English invasion of America to the American invasion of the Middle East. I think we kid ourselves when we think we ought to take over land that already is someone else's.

But I think I can recognize this as a precursor for the kind of thinking that you're doing. I wonder if I'll get where you are. Hmmm.
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~greg
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by ~greg »

Leonard Cohen wrote:The French gave the Iroquois their name.
Naming food is one thing, naming a people is another,
not that the people in question seem to care today.
If they never cared, so much the worse for me:
I'm far too willing to shoulder the alleged humiliations
of harmless peoples, as evidenced by my life work
with the A-------s.
- Beautiful Losers

(check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#Name )

Although it wasn't his "life work", at some point Cohen did have
to immerse himself in American Indian history and culture before
writing BLs.

And while I'm no authority, I definitely get the impression that
"...one of the few traits that might be applied sweepingly to most
American Indians" is the "belief in a personally acquirable magic power."
And that
...the widespread concept of ownership of land in common
by a related group of people might be another such trait.

These attitudes were overwhelmed in emerging societies elsewhere
in the world by other sets of notions drawn from other primitive world
views, but they gained the ascendancy in America. Operated upon
by untroubled time, they became distinctively Indian.
(- Indians - William Brandon - American Heritage Library)
Many of the conflicts with land ownership were complicated by misunderstandings.
For the American Indian, there was no concept of ownership of land.
How could one sell land that one did not own? It was not a new land,
it was an old land; and they were merely existing on it. It belonged to God,
not to man. How could one sell land belonging to God? When they found out
that they did sell land and were presented with legal documents, they had
no idea of the consequences of the document.
- http://catlinclassroom.si.edu/interviews/al-murray.html
Some of our chiefs make the claim that the land belongs to us.
It is not what the Great Spirit told me. He told me that the lands belong to Him,
that no people owns the land; that I was not to forget to tell this to the white people
when I met them in council.
- KANAKUK, KICKAPOO, ADRESSING GENERAL WILLIAM CLARK, 1827
- http://www.taiska.net/nativespirit/wisdoms.htm


As I say, I am no authority. And Indian land rights is very much a live topic
in the U.S. and Canada today, so of course there are revisionist and
conspiracy theories related to it all over the internet. And I am not able
to evaluate their merits and demerits.

For one seemingly contrary view, from PERC, see
http://www.perc.org/about.php?id=802

eg, quoting from there,
Likewise, Julian Steward (1938, 253) asserted that among Native Americans communal property was limited,
and Frances Densmore (1939) concluded that the Makah tribe in the Pacific Northwest had property rights similar to Europeans.’
These early twentieth-century historians and anthropologists had the advantage of actually interviewing tribal members
who had lived in pre-reservation Indian society.
About PERC -
...
The Property and Environment Research Center, or PERC,
is a free market environmentalist think tank
...
The organization defies easy categorization...
...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_a ... rch_Center


"Defies categorization" - is an understatement about PERC.

However, "American Indian" is something that should also defy
easy categorization. And while what that PERC article says
that Frances Densmore concluded about the Makah tribe
is undoubtedly true, the PERC article is not very convincing
in following it with the sweeping generalization that
...By the late 1940s, however, these original and firsthand
sources of information had died, and false myths and historical
distortions began to take dominant shape. By the mid–1960s,
the tone in many college history books, history-inspired films
and novels, and even speeches had completely changed (Mika 1995). ...
("False myths"? -- vs. true myths?)

But the main reason I find at least this aspect of that article
hard to take is that, even though I've only spent a little time
on these things, using a few books I happen to have, and
surfing the internet, nevertheless everywhere I have looked
I have run into native and non-native quotes from long before
the late 1940s that absolutely support the "false myth" that
the notion of individually owned land was completely alien
to native American Indians, who had, instead of it, a notion,
quite alien to most of us, except for Cohen, something
like a temporary, conditional, tribal leasing of land from God.

(Generally a good place to find almost any anthropological
counter case you may happen to want is Papua New Guinea.
Eg the Kapauku Papuans are a virtually stone-age tribe there
who, evidently for the last 10 or 20 thousand years, have had
a virtually capitalistic economy. (- look up Leopold Pospisil))
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

Will Ishmael declare, We are in debt forever?
Ishmael was treated unfairly, as was his mum, Hagar.
Sarah and Abe did the wrong thing by them and set them up to perish.
God helped out and gave the children of Ishmael plenty of oil,
“and a deadly treasure under you” and here we are in the 21’st Century “in debt forever”.

The conflict is between the children of Hagar and the children of Sarah.
Sarah was a jerk.
Hagar was a genuine human being.
Abe was weak and allowed Sarah’s selfishness to control the outcome.

Leonard makes it pretty clear that there is a debt to re-pay.
But who is “We” (capital W) ?
Will Ishmael declare, We are in debt forever?
Is it a mis-print?
Is it Israel and the children of Sarah and God as well?
??? or who?

It all smacks of a bad case of guilt and paranoia to me.
I don’t think Leonard was having a good day when he wrote this. What “prophet” does sound sane though when prophesying?
Most of them sound paranoid.

Maybe he is suggesting that the truth hurts?

Now before you go criticizing this tangent I am taking, remember that these are only attempts to uncover Leonard’s intent.
I didn’t write this verse, Leonard did.

Prophets.!!! Do they see too clearly?
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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~greg
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by ~greg »

mat wrote:But who is “We” (capital W) ?
Will Ishmael declare, We are in debt forever?
Is it a mis-print?
I thought this punctuation was clear enough.
It's simply a style of quoting in poetry.
Will Ishmael declare, we are in debt forever?
...is what would have been really confusing.
But
Will Ishmael declare, "We are in debt forever"?
...looks gross in poetry.
~~
Simply capitalizing "We", on the other hand, is quite sufficient to make it perfectly clear
that "We are ...." is a whole complete separate sentence, and that it is, in fact,
the very sentence of which it is being rhetorically asked if Ishmael will declare it
(...not! ).

The pattern is consistent in the poem
Who will say it?
Will America say, We have stolen it,
....
or Poland say, We have sinned?
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~greg
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by ~greg »

Ishmael, who was saved in the wilderness, and given shade in the desert,
and a deadly treasure under you: has Mercy made you wise?
Will Ishmael declare, We are in debt forever?
Cf
(from http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/profe ... rophecy%20~ )

The people asked Maasaw for permission to live in the new land of Turtle Island
(North America).

Maasaw said:

"It is up to you, whether you are willing to live my poor, humble and simple life.
It is hard, but if you are willing to live according to my teachings and instructions
and will never lose faith in the life I shall give you, you may come and live with me.
Now you look at me. I am a poor man. I have almost nothing: I have only my
planting stick, my seed corn, and a jug of water. I live a simple life.
If you wish to live with me, you must sacrifice many things.
If you want me for your leader, your chief, you must prove
that you can live this way of life.

"Now look around. See this land. It is poor land.
There is not much water and very few trees. But this is the richest land.
There is great wealth under. But hear this warning --- you are not to disturb this land
and take this wealth out as long as there is still war going on. If you do, these things
will be used to destroy life and this will not be your salvation...

"Never disturb this land. Do not cede your land to anyone; don’t ever give it away.
Above all, it is to provide your nourishment. Hold this land dear like a mother
as long as you live. If you sell it you will no longer reap crops.
Be prepared: one after another people will approach you
and put you to the test in this matter.

"If, in addition, you are willing to adopt the religion which I practice,
you will derive further benefits for your life... But you have arrived
with great ambitions and expectations. When you fall into your evil ways again,
you will make me weep...

"All right, you have settled in a desert, yet the land is filled with riches.
You reside on the very backbone of the earth. All kinds of precious things
are buried in this earth. There exists a storehouse of treasures underground
but you must not dig them up yet.

"Three times big war will rage. Should you excavate these treasures
while the killing is taking place, powerful weapons will be forged from them
and people will be slain by them. If you act on your own in this matter,
you will do wrong. Not before the day of purification has been completed,
may you unearth these things. At that time people will benefit from them.
However, if these wars ever take place here, don’t pick up your weapons,
and don’t engage in the business of killing...”
DBCohen
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by DBCohen »

mat james wrote: What “prophet” does sound sane though when prophesying?
Most of them sound paranoid.
Mat,

You have a good point there, as Hosea, himself a prophet, already acknowledged (9:7): “the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad”. They must be out of their minds to say all those things, but perhaps that’s why their words are so poignant

About the capitalized “We”, Greg is right, of course: it’s the sign for a quotation, in this case, something the writer believes each nation should say (but don’t). I’m sure you know about it, but sometimes we get confused and miss an obvious point. Also, since Ishmael was saved by God’s intervention, I believe that the debt he is mentioning here is the debt to God, to Mercy, and in that respect Ishmael is not different than the other nations, according to the writer’s perspective.

*
Greg,

Thank you very much for those quotations from the American-Indian tradition. It is interesting to see that they too had this concept of the land being God’s, and people just dwelling upon it. The connection you’ve made between the Ishmael verses and Maasaw’s words is also very intriguing.
DBCohen
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by DBCohen »

Manna wrote: The idea that I got from Leonard's passage was about stealing the land from people who were there first. From the Norman invasion of England to the English invasion of America to the American invasion of the Middle East. I think we kid ourselves when we think we ought to take over land that already is someone else's.
Manna,

I’m not sure that this is his intention here. After all, no people in the world sit in their original place. Even the aborigines in Australia came from someplace else. Peoples migrated, changed places and annihilated or absorbed other peoples many times. It is just the matter of time: we are more aware of recent events than older ones. And it would not be just to try to right a wrong by another wrong, and tell people who populated a land relatively recently that they should go back where they came from; this just leads to more tragedies. I think what he means here is on the more principle level: a land does not necessarily belong to the people who live on it; nations should not be so arrogant, self-righteous and unfair to others as they usually are, and this he bases on the spiritual concept that the world is God’s and we are but his tenants, so we’d better learn to behave ourselves. We might agree or disagree, wholly or partially, with this concept, but I think that this is what he’s trying to say.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

Greg and DB, thanks for the clarity.
I experienced a blind spot! I missed the obvious completely.
Does that make you guys "miracle" makers since you made this blind man see? ;-)

On the "aboriginal" perspective, they call themselves "custodians" of "my country"
One famous title of a book relating to aboriginals and their relationship to the land is titled; "Poor fellow my country", which is a remark made by a traditional fellow about the condition of the land and wildlife since European invasion.
Poor fellow my country. What a beautifully empathetic response. So sad, really. :cry:

This reminds me of a dream I had once where my spirit floated over a semi desert group of sand hills and I was admiring the freedom of the windswept grass,

...so naturally unkept
and I heard a voice warm and golden
softly speak

"This is the last
which is as it was"


and I cried and cried
and cried
so mournful
such a loss.


(I can hear that voice still ! as I write this post)

Perhaps this is more an aboriginal perspective than a "civilised" one?
Perhaps also this is what Leonard is alluding too?
"Poor fellow my country" is sublime.

Matj
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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~greg
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by ~greg »

mat wrote:I experienced a blind spot! I missed the obvious completely.
Does that make you guys "miracle" makers since you made this blind man see?
Well, I did think that LC might be using some kind of stylized quoting,
although I wasn't at all sure about it. But then you asked about it
so insecurely that I thought it would be fun to adopt the authoritative
tone in contrast, saying
I thought this punctuation was clear enough.

But I wasn't so confident about it at the time.

As a matter of fact, I was "whistling in the dark",
and the real miracle is that I have apparently gotten away with it (this time).
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Joe Way
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by Joe Way »

Mat J-
I think that your notion of the conflict between Hagar and Sarah is very close to what is at stake here in this part. But I think that it probably stems more from the covenant(s) that were made. Doron can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the covenant with Abraham that the land that he was living on would be given to him and his seed was made after the birth of Ishmael. I think that God also made a separate covenant with Hagar promising to make Ishmael founder of a great nation. The argument has long been made by both sides that this is the same land.

Leonard in an interview on the press tour for Ten New Songs was asked his take on this:
Cohen is from a prominent Jewish family in Montreal, with origins in Poland. Both grandfathers of the Canadian singer were remarkable members of the community, one of them a scholarly writer. He still belongs to the same synagogue of his ancestors. His religion is a good religion. "The more I studied in the monastery, the closer I felt to the religion of my family. In the Zen monastery one neither affirms nor refuses G-d, therefore a conflict with other beliefs is not possible. What we study is the essence of things, of life." Citing the words of the bard ("Oh,...my words"), the greatness of a religion is in affirming other religions, the way a great culture affirms other cultures. I am conscious of putting a finger in a wound, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the establishment of Jewish colonies in the land of the Palestinians. (Silence) "What I think? That's a weighty question. My loyalty is compromised, I wish everyone well, but I am especially worried about the survival of Israel. With the present Administration and its policy, Israel is somewhat of a priority on my mind. But last week I was reading the Quran and it speaks of reconciliation, of peace, of compassion. I have hope there will be a solution, although I don't know what that would be. I know that it is tragic, that the Palestinians need to find a place to live, as do the Jews. The problem is that G-d has commanded them both to live on the same site." (Waiting for laughter, laughter)
"The problem is that G-d has commanded them both to live on the same site."

"What we study is the essence of things, of life."

Leonard seems to be suggesting both in this verse and in the interview that the covenants that were established have not been honored and are no longer valid due to the course of the world's action.

The other night I watched "To Die in Jerusalem," a movie about the meeting of two mothers-one the Palestinian mother of a suicide bomber and the other the Jewish mother of a victim of the suicide bomber. I remembered the cover of the Newsweek article that referenced this terrible event. The two girls, Rachel & Ayat, were both seventeen and looked like they could be sisters. As I watched the movie, I thought how the two mothers, Avagail and Um Samir, could as easily be named, Sarah and Hagar. One can say many things about the complexity and breadth of the politics that lead to this tragedy, but it is clear that this situation and so many others like it throughout the world cannot be changed without a change in the human heart.

Greg, your comparison of this with the Native American history is spot on. Have you read, "Dalva" by Jim Harrison? It is one of the best novels that I have read recently and is a striking example of the type of casual genocide that formed the history of the U. S.

Joe
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

But then you asked about it
so insecurely
~greg

I'm not sure what you are on about/alluding to here greg?
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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