You'll see your woman hanging upside down

[Manna]

I don't think it's culture's invention, but I liked a lot of what you said, Tom. (Of course, you've curried my favour with your opening.) I read that article too, and because it seemed to be written by someone who knows more about poetry than I do, I just shrugged and let it go. I too had some misgivings about it. When the author wrote about the upside-down woman connection with Christ, my brain did something like, "say what!?!"

[Steven]

And if we came to know for sure what L.C. meant, it would change, for some of us, the degree to which we favor the song. If you could know, would you want to? My response: Yes.

[Manna]

I'd love to hear Leonard's perspective, though I don't know if that translates to knowing for sure. What is given isn't always the same as what is received. What it means to him may not be what it means to me (or to the archaeologists who dig up his hard drive 10,000 years from now). What he thought he intended when he wrote it may become obscured by more recent thoughts he's had about it; I don't know how present the past is to him. And maybe he's learned something by looking back at himself in the time of writing this and by seeing what others and we have all said of it. I'd be interested in that too.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Manna and Steven ~

From what I've seen and read, Leonard seems to cite his not holding on to the past... or even remembering it very well. I've seen him say that quite often he doesn't remember/recall what his thinking was surrounding a particular song or poem. When recent songs have been asked about, his responses have often been unlike anything you might anticipate and left you wondering if somehow the topic had changed when you weren't looking . From what I've seen, it seems to me that Leonard has no intention of easing the way for us in interpreting his songs. I honestly think he has written them the way he has with the intent that they can mean so many things to so many different people, ages and cultures, and coming generations. Again, I think of his 30-year-old Volkswagen quote and how 'dating' a song with specificities can mitigate against that. It seems to me that Leonard would enjoy seeing all the varied interpretations and that it could even be satisfying for him. It also makes his songs more 'coverable,' which we've also seen that he enjoys immensely ~ "all judgement is suspended." There may be a humourous aspect to this, as well... "It took me [X #] years to write it; do you really think I'm going to explain it all for you in 30 seconds?"


~ Lizzy

[hydriot]

This phrase, for me at least, also links through to that lovely command: "Untie for me your hired blue gown". Same woman, I reckon!

[lizzytysh]

Wasn't that "tired" blue gown, Hydriot? Now, I've forgotten myself what it was, but I know I've never heard it as "hired" in that line. I guess I'll need to check, huh .


~ Lizzy

[Manna]

I thought it was hired, as in rented but not purchased.

[lizzytysh]

I think you two are right... and I'm wrong. Your hired blue gown... as I hear it, again, it sounds right. I can even see it in print in my mind's eye... not having gone to the lyrics pages... and having had my first, second, and third cup of coffee . I can't forget, but I can't remember what... .


~ Lizzy

[lizzytysh]

Good thoughts, PBShel .


~ Lizzy

[Steven]

Pbshel67,

Joan Baez, on a Dylan biography, mimicked Dylan's voice saying that he said that
other people interpret his songs as if they know, when he himself doesn't know.
Many of Dylan's songs seem to be more of a stream-of-consciousness type of expression,
whereas Leonard Cohen's songs are, he has said, painstakingly thought out. I don't
doubt that the unconscious meanings of the creative products may be uncertain to
them, BUT it would seem that Cohen's rewriting and then again rewriting works would make
for a more likely sense, by Cohen, of what it is that his songs may be trying to convey.
If so, whether that sense is really on-target is an altogether different matter.

[jimbo]

bean there done that..........................

[panjandrum]

I always see this part of the song in an almost cinematic way within my mind's eye. To make things even more disturbing, from the first time I heard this song I've seen the fallen gown as a white wedding gown.

[Manna]

I've seen the fallen gown as a white wedding gown.

yep, me too.

[jimbo]

now you are reading me at last..............................

[iris wigle-cutforth]

The important word here is "your", so, any man who envisions his gal upsidedown with her face hiden by her gown must mean he wants a divorce???