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Yes, Manna.
I like the logic of this too,

I had a thought a bit ago (part of that BoM - bivouac business) that seemed to me like when we're alive, our survival compells us to compete with each other. That competition drives us in opposite direction from love and generosity. When we're dead, we don't have to survive any more, so there's less to get in the way of love.

It is an interesting thought you (and Lizzy) have there. And maybe you are on the right track? !

Taking this to an extreme allowed me the thought that when I die, I'll know all those crazy things I want to know

There is a technical difficulty though:
If un-differentiated unity is true to form, then the argument goes that there would be no "time" and "no space" and therefore no place for thought to occur.
It's a tricky one, if you are a rational person.
Sometimes it is best to be irrational.Or head for some place other than unity for awhile until you have had enough of that perspective.
My guess is that you want to go some place in-between this world and Unity! Get out the map and keep looking and let us know where you end up.
Thanks for the interesting thoughts.
Matj

Did you know that newborn babies get vertigo a lot? They come into this world not knowing which way is up. It may be that going out of this world will be kind of like that. Babies have to learn where they end and the rest of the world begins. They learn what kinds of things will respond to them, or initiate with them, and which ones are at their mercy. Wouldn't it be interesting (fun?) to have to relearn all that cardinal stuff under different circumstances? With different answers?

I don't know if time and space can be messed with that way, Matj. Does unity have to be pervasive in the universe in order to exist at all?

Also, thanks for having this discussion with me. I haven't talked about your poem at all yet. I promise I read it, I just don't always seem able to come up with something to say about things.

Does unity have to be pervasive in the universe in order to exist at all?

Interesting question, Manna.
As I understand it, the answer is a definite "no".
Unity is unity.
Unity is "pre-universe" and "post universe". It is not reliant on space/time, which the universe is.
Strangely enough, it (unity) is everpresent, ("now") and therefore exists in the universe as well.

Very Zen!
Very "vertigo"!

And as for commenting on my poem?
I think these thoughts of yours are a superior response. So thanks for the vertigo.
You have just reminded me of a line in one of my poems (genetic genesis) wher I say,
"I dance and sing till vertigo"

Matj

It is not reliant on space/time, which the universe is.

Is it?


~ Lizzy

It is not reliant on space/time, which the universe is.

Is it?

Hi Lizzy,
Greater minds than mine (Einstein for one) suggest that, that is the case.
But in this area, all is theory I suppose and I am babbling on too much.
As for me, I can smell a rose, but I can't explain it.
Perhaps others reading this thread can enlighten you on "relativity" and all that jazz?

Ah, what did Einstein know ?

Actually, I'd prefer that Doron enlighten me and us on his additional thoughts on Roshi's throwing Leonard over the fence of the Torah, but in what direction... in or out?

Was this to suggest that Roshi felt/believed the Torah was a fence keeping Leonard from the truth? I don't think so... it doesn't seem like Roshi, who is all-embracing, to do something like that.

Or, could he mean that Roshi inadvertently and unintentionally did that, forcing Leonard to see and question his own religion, through having seen/examined it from the other side of the fence? If so, Leonard still didn't abandon his own.

Well, if Doron doesn't show up and explore his speculations soon, it seems we might as well go on to the next verse... we can always circle back. As it is now, we're getting lost in space .


~ Lizzy

Ha. Sorry, Mat... somehow my comprehension of where I was with this one got reversed [I blame it on Liverpoolken ]. Guess I'll copy and paste what's after my first sentence to where it really belongs .


~ Lizzy

This is true:


I never kneel to pray
but sometimes
my legs give way


The weight of the human condition... we creak... and at times what option do we have?

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy,

When we are creaking, to stay in/regain/acquire a resourceful mindset leaves
us best able to see and exercise the options that are available. Doing so, though, is
a challenge under less than very weightful times and people generally don't
practice this before the times get really heavy.