I love the name Moshe I named my budgie Moshe after Moshe Dyan who was a hero of mine in childhood.
I thought Dylan called himself Dylan after Dylan Thomas.
I wonder if Mr Cohen has ever had a bacon sandwich.
Is Cohen the equivelent of Smith or Patel in England or Jones in Wales can't think of the most common name in Scotland or Ireland
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George.Wright
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interesting thread.
btw the reasons of leaving a pebble by the gravestone i have heard was 1)to leave a momento of your visit,kind of like flowers.
2)that there were times that they didnt have gravestones(for different reasons),and this was in affect a substitute.after multiple visits.
3)that in case the person was punishable by stoning,this was an atonement for that.
there are probably more reasons,on different levels.
regarding cohens nowadays,as the lore go's,after the reign of king solomon,when the ten tribes deserted,there were only the tribes of judah and benjimen.in addition,the cohens remained.they are a offshoot of the tribe of levi.they had been chosen to work in the temple,as was aforementioned.they received no land in israel,but the rest of the people were obligated to give them a small portion of their produce,to sustain them.nowadays this is not applicable,according to "hallacha".in israel things get a little complicated,regarding tithes,etc...
so the reason cohen is such a common name,is that it was a pretty large group at the time of the houdiniesque ten tribes misplacement.(many ethiopian communities have been found that carry the same tradition,after so many years etc...)
its pretty much the only liniage that has been unbroken as of now.the judians and benjimites are not conclusive in their liniage.there are levites as well,(yet very few,)for they stayed on as well through the disappearing act,as they had music to play in the temple.
when there is a torah(bible) reading every monday and thursday in orthodox temples as well as twice on saturday,the cohen is called up first then the levi and then the israels(commoners,of which i am one!).they also make the preistly blessings on special holidays out of israel,and every day at the western wall.the blessing comes from numbers 6:.24-26.
thats where their special status begins and ends,oh and they have those abovementioned restrictions as well.(if they practice)
as for the "hallacha" there is no such thing as someone being"not jewish enough".thats just silly.if your mom is thats the deciding factor,not if you go to temple or not,or if you eat ham and rye or not.i think the "not a jew"piece was a expression of this in leonards way.
as for jesus,ah yes well that episode is documented in the talmud.its quite dramatic.i will look it up and quote a bit.just a quick quote from his teacher,joshua the son of prakyia:"you shall judge every person in a favorable light".this he said,after the debacle.
well time to pull the shades and call it a night,
saluté
elazar
btw the reasons of leaving a pebble by the gravestone i have heard was 1)to leave a momento of your visit,kind of like flowers.
2)that there were times that they didnt have gravestones(for different reasons),and this was in affect a substitute.after multiple visits.
3)that in case the person was punishable by stoning,this was an atonement for that.
there are probably more reasons,on different levels.
regarding cohens nowadays,as the lore go's,after the reign of king solomon,when the ten tribes deserted,there were only the tribes of judah and benjimen.in addition,the cohens remained.they are a offshoot of the tribe of levi.they had been chosen to work in the temple,as was aforementioned.they received no land in israel,but the rest of the people were obligated to give them a small portion of their produce,to sustain them.nowadays this is not applicable,according to "hallacha".in israel things get a little complicated,regarding tithes,etc...
so the reason cohen is such a common name,is that it was a pretty large group at the time of the houdiniesque ten tribes misplacement.(many ethiopian communities have been found that carry the same tradition,after so many years etc...)
its pretty much the only liniage that has been unbroken as of now.the judians and benjimites are not conclusive in their liniage.there are levites as well,(yet very few,)for they stayed on as well through the disappearing act,as they had music to play in the temple.
when there is a torah(bible) reading every monday and thursday in orthodox temples as well as twice on saturday,the cohen is called up first then the levi and then the israels(commoners,of which i am one!).they also make the preistly blessings on special holidays out of israel,and every day at the western wall.the blessing comes from numbers 6:.24-26.
thats where their special status begins and ends,oh and they have those abovementioned restrictions as well.(if they practice)
as for the "hallacha" there is no such thing as someone being"not jewish enough".thats just silly.if your mom is thats the deciding factor,not if you go to temple or not,or if you eat ham and rye or not.i think the "not a jew"piece was a expression of this in leonards way.
as for jesus,ah yes well that episode is documented in the talmud.its quite dramatic.i will look it up and quote a bit.just a quick quote from his teacher,joshua the son of prakyia:"you shall judge every person in a favorable light".this he said,after the debacle.
well time to pull the shades and call it a night,
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
elazar,
I think you are right. The dropping of a stone is to show that the person has not been forgotten and that his grave has been visited. And observant Jews are commanded to give to charity rather than placing flowers on the grave.
(Although there is a kabbalistic legend from the time of the Turks conquest of Jerusalem about this practice too.)
I am not certain how Cohen was determined to be the modern equivilent of the ancient Tribe of Levi. I know some research has been done on the Y chromosome which purports to connect the two. And a man may be an ordinary Cohen (priest) or Cohen Gadol (High Priest). And there are others who are of the same levitical line who do not have the last name of Cohen.
We know that priests were commanded not to defile themselves in the matter of the dead in ancient times. But why was the sign posted at the cemetary today? There is no Temple for priests in which to perform their duties today. And won't be. Unless, of course someone blows up the Mosque of Omar in Jerusalem. And then all sheol really will break loose.
eeey
I think you are right. The dropping of a stone is to show that the person has not been forgotten and that his grave has been visited. And observant Jews are commanded to give to charity rather than placing flowers on the grave.
(Although there is a kabbalistic legend from the time of the Turks conquest of Jerusalem about this practice too.)
I am not certain how Cohen was determined to be the modern equivilent of the ancient Tribe of Levi. I know some research has been done on the Y chromosome which purports to connect the two. And a man may be an ordinary Cohen (priest) or Cohen Gadol (High Priest). And there are others who are of the same levitical line who do not have the last name of Cohen.
We know that priests were commanded not to defile themselves in the matter of the dead in ancient times. But why was the sign posted at the cemetary today? There is no Temple for priests in which to perform their duties today. And won't be. Unless, of course someone blows up the Mosque of Omar in Jerusalem. And then all sheol really will break loose.
eeey
dear lizzytysh,
there are many ways to spell it,like coen etc...and there is some european form thats kogan....
eeey,i think the tribe of levi wasnt morphed into cohens,but that the cohens were a branch of the levi tribe.not all cohens have the last name cohen,like you said.there is a last name levi,too;both became independant groups i think.but they are linked.i heard something about the dna research,but am not familiar with it.
in regards to the purity status of the modern day cohen,it is said that nowadays everyone is impure anyways.but the rituals of purity are kept,in tradition with the law.as for the temple service in any near future,there is the messia factor which can be of note.interesting spot for the mosque,temple mount.i dont think anyone will blow it up,lest all gehenom break lose.
im looking through the tractates,both babylonian and jerusalem,to find the jesus episode.will tell all.
saluté
elazar
there are many ways to spell it,like coen etc...and there is some european form thats kogan....
eeey,i think the tribe of levi wasnt morphed into cohens,but that the cohens were a branch of the levi tribe.not all cohens have the last name cohen,like you said.there is a last name levi,too;both became independant groups i think.but they are linked.i heard something about the dna research,but am not familiar with it.
in regards to the purity status of the modern day cohen,it is said that nowadays everyone is impure anyways.but the rituals of purity are kept,in tradition with the law.as for the temple service in any near future,there is the messia factor which can be of note.interesting spot for the mosque,temple mount.i dont think anyone will blow it up,lest all gehenom break lose.
im looking through the tractates,both babylonian and jerusalem,to find the jesus episode.will tell all.
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
Elazar I wonder while you are looking for the text about Jesus if you could quote numbers 6:.24-26 for me. I am sorry to say I do not possess a bible.
The cemertry my dad is buried in is for Jews only, there were no flowers anywhere only stones, the graves all had stars of david and hebrew on them. The sign was prominant and was not a left over old bidding. You can check out the jewish cemetries on the web it will give you the names of all the people buried and what row.
Also are Rabbis allowed to marry and what is the story behind circumcision. I hope noone minds these general questions.
I remember a few years ago in one of the wars in Africa they found a pure tribe of I think it was Levis and they were taken to Israel to live
The cemertry my dad is buried in is for Jews only, there were no flowers anywhere only stones, the graves all had stars of david and hebrew on them. The sign was prominant and was not a left over old bidding. You can check out the jewish cemetries on the web it will give you the names of all the people buried and what row.
Also are Rabbis allowed to marry and what is the story behind circumcision. I hope noone minds these general questions.
I remember a few years ago in one of the wars in Africa they found a pure tribe of I think it was Levis and they were taken to Israel to live
hi eey,
the reason there is nor will be a third temple is not because of the Mosque , but because..hmm..well from an orthodox point of view the massiyah has to arrive first , and from an non-relegious point of view: israel was formed as a democtaric state and the majority of the jewish population here is non-relegious ("hiloni"), building a temple and reviving all the ancient costums will mean cancelling israel's democracy , and characture , and starting to live according to the "hallacha" rules. This is of course , the israeli orthodox's wet dream , and the israeli's non-relegious's nightmare.
Since the orthodox are only about 15% of the population , i really dont see their dream comming true.
Elazar ,thanks for sharing your knowledge in judaism , its far greater than mine , as i said earlier , i dont come from a relegious background , i guess you do.
its interesting to know the cohens are linked to the levi , and that the levi get a special status in the synagogue.
I'll have to disagree with you about the "not jewish enough" issue , as many judaistic streams see it , being born to a jewish mother might be a crutial starting point , but it certainly doesnt make you a jew . From the orthodox jew here ("haredim") reform jews are not jewish(!) , and not living according to the "hallacha" rules is like throwing away your relegion.
from their point of view , you cant just decide to follow a few principles from the bible/hallach and ignore the rest, its not acceptable. from other streams point of view , the story is different , of course.
Even from a less strict relegious point of view , btw , living in a monestary and engaging in budahism for 7 years can be concidered as an extreme act , converting your relegion ( "avoda zarah")
the reason there is nor will be a third temple is not because of the Mosque , but because..hmm..well from an orthodox point of view the massiyah has to arrive first , and from an non-relegious point of view: israel was formed as a democtaric state and the majority of the jewish population here is non-relegious ("hiloni"), building a temple and reviving all the ancient costums will mean cancelling israel's democracy , and characture , and starting to live according to the "hallacha" rules. This is of course , the israeli orthodox's wet dream , and the israeli's non-relegious's nightmare.
Since the orthodox are only about 15% of the population , i really dont see their dream comming true.
Elazar ,thanks for sharing your knowledge in judaism , its far greater than mine , as i said earlier , i dont come from a relegious background , i guess you do.
its interesting to know the cohens are linked to the levi , and that the levi get a special status in the synagogue.
I'll have to disagree with you about the "not jewish enough" issue , as many judaistic streams see it , being born to a jewish mother might be a crutial starting point , but it certainly doesnt make you a jew . From the orthodox jew here ("haredim") reform jews are not jewish(!) , and not living according to the "hallacha" rules is like throwing away your relegion.
from their point of view , you cant just decide to follow a few principles from the bible/hallach and ignore the rest, its not acceptable. from other streams point of view , the story is different , of course.
Even from a less strict relegious point of view , btw , living in a monestary and engaging in budahism for 7 years can be concidered as an extreme act , converting your relegion ( "avoda zarah")
Last edited by Einat on Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
dear paula,
the blessing from numbers is actualy found in the daily prayer books,and is considered a(the) chief blessing.as for the texts on jesus come from the talmud,which is quite large,and not commonly known.i found it though,and will post it soon..in a concise fashion.
as for the covenant of circumcision,it was first done by abraham in genesis,and is explained as a "sign" of a bond between the hebrews and their G-d.some say it shows a sacrifice of human pleasure,for a higher cause.
einat,
those who really believe in the messia,i think they dont qualify a overthrow of the state of israel as its known...as part of the plan.what i heard was that the second temple was destoyed "because" of the hate that there was between them,and the way the messia will come is through "ahavat hinam" love that is unequevical.the rift that exists between the "hariedim"the othrodox fanaticals,and the "hilunim"the secular israelies ,is horrendous.there has to be some attemp to come to a mutual understanding,i think.
those who say reform jews arent jewish i believe are ignorant in "hallacha".one must sin in defiance,serve idolatry in spite,etc..to be called a heretic.i never heard of someone becoming"not jewish".there are quote after quote,verse after verse,that says this in effect.and nowadays there is the law of "a child brought up in captivity"which basicaly says that noone is really responsible if they havent been instructed otherwise.thats the "hallacha".
also lucky for them that african tribe they werent brought to israel,if you know what kind of fiasco "operation magic carpet"was.the "missing"children,the subhuman living conditions etc...
and listen to "neighborhood bully" to find out why bob dylon joined "kahane".
saluté
elazar
the blessing from numbers is actualy found in the daily prayer books,and is considered a(the) chief blessing.as for the texts on jesus come from the talmud,which is quite large,and not commonly known.i found it though,and will post it soon..in a concise fashion.
as for the covenant of circumcision,it was first done by abraham in genesis,and is explained as a "sign" of a bond between the hebrews and their G-d.some say it shows a sacrifice of human pleasure,for a higher cause.
einat,
those who really believe in the messia,i think they dont qualify a overthrow of the state of israel as its known...as part of the plan.what i heard was that the second temple was destoyed "because" of the hate that there was between them,and the way the messia will come is through "ahavat hinam" love that is unequevical.the rift that exists between the "hariedim"the othrodox fanaticals,and the "hilunim"the secular israelies ,is horrendous.there has to be some attemp to come to a mutual understanding,i think.
those who say reform jews arent jewish i believe are ignorant in "hallacha".one must sin in defiance,serve idolatry in spite,etc..to be called a heretic.i never heard of someone becoming"not jewish".there are quote after quote,verse after verse,that says this in effect.and nowadays there is the law of "a child brought up in captivity"which basicaly says that noone is really responsible if they havent been instructed otherwise.thats the "hallacha".
also lucky for them that african tribe they werent brought to israel,if you know what kind of fiasco "operation magic carpet"was.the "missing"children,the subhuman living conditions etc...
and listen to "neighborhood bully" to find out why bob dylon joined "kahane".
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
I thank you both Einat and Elazar you are certainly giving me food for thought.
I do have another couple of questions. I am sorry but when I hear the answer to one it seeems to create more questions.
If Jesus was reconized as having existed Judahism is older than Christianity. Why does the world universaly use the supposed date of his birth to calculate the year 2003.
The other questions are not to do with Judsism as such.
First of all Einat concerning all the places that are named in the bible do you feel the history and the tradition if you ever go there. I have never been atho my sister was on a kibbutz for four years.
Secondly I am not 100% sure where my grandparents originated from I believe Poland could be Russia or somewhere else. My grandfathers first name was Pincus does anyone know what country that name would originate in
I do have another couple of questions. I am sorry but when I hear the answer to one it seeems to create more questions.
If Jesus was reconized as having existed Judahism is older than Christianity. Why does the world universaly use the supposed date of his birth to calculate the year 2003.
The other questions are not to do with Judsism as such.
First of all Einat concerning all the places that are named in the bible do you feel the history and the tradition if you ever go there. I have never been atho my sister was on a kibbutz for four years.
Secondly I am not 100% sure where my grandparents originated from I believe Poland could be Russia or somewhere else. My grandfathers first name was Pincus does anyone know what country that name would originate in
Hey Paula,
There is a website called the Jewish Records Index and it has a subsite with the address http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ for those interested in the Polish origins of their families.
It seems many of those with the name Pincus did come from Poland, particulary Wronke (or Wronki) Poland. Wronki is a very historic site with a 1000 year old Synagogue which determined the Jewish development in Poland.
Hope this is of some help.
eeey
There is a website called the Jewish Records Index and it has a subsite with the address http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ for those interested in the Polish origins of their families.
It seems many of those with the name Pincus did come from Poland, particulary Wronke (or Wronki) Poland. Wronki is a very historic site with a 1000 year old Synagogue which determined the Jewish development in Poland.
Hope this is of some help.
eeey
dear paula,
pincus is a biblical name,and i dont know if it was more popular in one country over another.some names have historical or geographical influances,to be sure.in the days of alexander the greats conquests,all the boys and girls born in jerusalem were named alexander or alexandra,in reverance.
in european countrys,they had differant ways of generating last names.after the father was the common way,like so and so the son of so and so.then when the need for last names came about,people were named after their craft,and other ways,in differant places.sometimes the style of the last name can give a clue to where they originate.
in regards to the calculation of the years.judiasm actualy has its own calender,which runs on the lunar month cycle.its believed the world is 5763 years old.to get into the ramifacations of the scientific research that prove the world is 10 billion years old,or whatever,is a whole subject unto itself.
i think the christian counting of years was so widespread,it became the universal calculation.some jews will say b.c.e.~ before common era ~ rather then b.efore c.hrist.
as for those texts on jesus!
i found a few places where it speaks of him.the thing is,not all printings carry the full text.they were erased.there is a heavy silence amonst the commentarys on the subject.they usualy have alot to say..one commentary erases the name,and gives a weak explantion,that jesus lived in another generation.
this can all be understood in context.to comment on the matter would be a dangerous undertaking in their time.
they didnt have free speach as we do now,and most of their works was censored by the authoritys.much grief to put it lightly was visited apon the people,for the various non p.c. texts.including the ones about yeshu,the nazarith.so i want to present it when i can find all there is to find.this should not take to much longer,as there is little.
saluté
elazar
pincus is a biblical name,and i dont know if it was more popular in one country over another.some names have historical or geographical influances,to be sure.in the days of alexander the greats conquests,all the boys and girls born in jerusalem were named alexander or alexandra,in reverance.
in european countrys,they had differant ways of generating last names.after the father was the common way,like so and so the son of so and so.then when the need for last names came about,people were named after their craft,and other ways,in differant places.sometimes the style of the last name can give a clue to where they originate.
in regards to the calculation of the years.judiasm actualy has its own calender,which runs on the lunar month cycle.its believed the world is 5763 years old.to get into the ramifacations of the scientific research that prove the world is 10 billion years old,or whatever,is a whole subject unto itself.
i think the christian counting of years was so widespread,it became the universal calculation.some jews will say b.c.e.~ before common era ~ rather then b.efore c.hrist.
as for those texts on jesus!
i found a few places where it speaks of him.the thing is,not all printings carry the full text.they were erased.there is a heavy silence amonst the commentarys on the subject.they usualy have alot to say..one commentary erases the name,and gives a weak explantion,that jesus lived in another generation.
this can all be understood in context.to comment on the matter would be a dangerous undertaking in their time.
they didnt have free speach as we do now,and most of their works was censored by the authoritys.much grief to put it lightly was visited apon the people,for the various non p.c. texts.including the ones about yeshu,the nazarith.so i want to present it when i can find all there is to find.this should not take to much longer,as there is little.
saluté
elazar
Last edited by elazar on Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
breathe deep and live
Hey, thanks eeey! Both of my maternal grandparents were Polish immigrants to this country. Knowing anything more than that, I never dreamed possible, as she died over here, shortly after giving my mother birth; and he died when I was very, very young [with only one very hazy memory of him in a rest home, shortly before he died]. I'll be very interested to see what I'm able to find. I don't recall their being Jewish, however ~ so, I may find nothing. Thanks, no matter what.
I second that. I am going to spend a few hours trawling thru that site. I put in my dad's family name and got a load of Woolfs come up. His name is nothing like that and I put in my grandmothers name and got a load of Judahs.
Lizzie what a strange turn of phase I have never heard it expressed like that before "giving my mother birth" I have only ever heard "gave birth to" it sounds strange the way you put it. Put a different perspective on it.
Between Elazar and Eeny I have learn a lot.
Could I ask you both a favour as and when we come up to any Jewish festivals would you please explain them to me and their meaning and circumstance.
Lizzie what a strange turn of phase I have never heard it expressed like that before "giving my mother birth" I have only ever heard "gave birth to" it sounds strange the way you put it. Put a different perspective on it.
Between Elazar and Eeny I have learn a lot.
Could I ask you both a favour as and when we come up to any Jewish festivals would you please explain them to me and their meaning and circumstance.
Not the first time the word "strange" has been used in reference to something I've said or done in my life ~ and sure won't be the last 
. It looks like you also left as default the option that appears to be, "anything that sounds like." I did it a second time with the "exact "spelling [the second option], the way I've always known it to be, anyway, and found nothing. I'll be calling my Mom to see if there was another spelling, perhaps, that she's aware of. I'd love to find something, anything. I also realized that just because it's the Jewish research, I don't think the people necessarily have to have been Jewish. I think there's a particular branch of religion over here [Catholic maybe?] that has geneological archives established. So, we'll see....I haven't given up yet.