leonardcohenforum.com

Thanks for the link Byron. I have just tried to subscribe to AI but am having trouble I will give it another go later. That organisation can really make a difference I used to be a member years ago but lapsed. You have chivved me into rejoining

I should check out Greenpeace as well.

Democracy needs to come to the USA. In a hurry please!!!!

Elizabeth, well over 750,000 ordinary people from all over this land marched through London this afternoon. It took them 5 hours to get them all through Piccadilly Circus and on to Hyde Park. Some of them did not get to the Park in time for the speeches. Many, many, celebrities spoke out against the Empire building of Bush. Your Tim Robins (actor) was interviewed on BBC TV along with other well known people. You are not in the small minority Elizabeth. This was the biggest anti-war demonstration ever seen in this country. People here know that Saddam is an evil, murdering tyrant. We don't need some politicians with a hidden agenda to tell us that! It is difficult to envisage the argument whereby many ordinary citizens of Iraq will be killed so that they can be buried in a fledgling democracy. Getting rid of Saddam is everyone's aim, but not aiming weapons at his oppressed people.

It is so sad American soldiers have to die and for what? Freedom for people like you. I would like to see all our troops called home, protect our own shores and let the rest of the world deal with their own problems and we with ours.

I'm with you, Linda.

When I see Bush and his family and all of his inner sanctum and their families, alongside Blair and his family and all of his Cabinet and their families, all in combat gear and fully kitted out, and leading the first charge into Iraq, ahead of not only US soldiers, but I might point out, thousands of British, Australian and other countries' soldiers, then I might sit down and let you get to know me.
Why do you think that the French, German, Belgian and Russian people are behind Blix? The ordinary citizens of each of those countries went through the reality of what war actually means. They all suffered under the boot of the tyrants. Please remember that those people have lost a generation in the fight for freedom. You are doing them a disservice when disparaging their own personal views on war. These people were right behind Bush snr in the Gulf war. But now because they do not agree with the method which you support, they find themselves castigated.
Do not forget, that for every family in the UK, there was someone blown to pieces by bombs during the blitz, and every night 'thousands' died, including most of my mother's family and friends. The people of Europe are only too well aware of what war is. And before you say it, Yes, we do owe the American people our eternal thanks for the thousands of American lives which were lost in Freedom's cause. But you must remember that they did not send their young men to a far off place to fight for freedom and then have the peace of mind of their families being safe back home in the US. The war was all around them every day for 6 years. Millions of lives were lost and not just soldiers. We are not discussing some new computer shoot 'em up game, or Hollywood Movie between the goodies and baddies here. I'm talking about the bloody carnage and utter futility suffered by ordinary people.
We want to get rid of Saddam. We do not agree on the method, THIS TIME!
You do not have a monopoly on democracy. However, there are people in Europe who understand that distinction from historical experience.
I see an emotive response from many people which would be better tempered with objective reasoning.
Blix is nobody's poodle. He knows the consequences of his assessments. He has spent time in Iraq and has seen the way people there are terrified of Saddam. Blix is nobody's poodle!

"Good-morning; good-morning!" the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
"He's a cheery old card," grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack
........................
But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

NB: the British suffered casualties of 84,000 troops, at Arras.
This is a piece by Siegfried Sassoon ( April 1917 )

He was educated at Cambridge. He came from a rich Jewish family and he had his own private income. He supported the leaders of his day and he fought in the battle of the Somme Offensive of July 1916 and he was awarded the Military Cross. He took a sniper's bullet through the chest. He was invalided home to hospital. With a courage equal to any he had shown in action, he made a public statement. In part as follows;
"I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest.....the purposes for (the war) ...should have been clearly stated, and that, had this been done....the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation."
The military hid him away from the public sent him to a hospital in Edinburgh (where he met Wilfred Owen).
He continued to attack the old men of the army, church and government whom he held responsible for the miseries and murder of the young.
BTW he returned to the Western Front in 1918, and was wounded AGAIN. And once more had to be invalided home.
All the above biography can be found at pages 1831 - 1834, in The Norton Anthology of English Literature. Sixth Edition. Volume 2. Edited by M. H. Abrams Class of 1916, Professor Of English Emeritus, Cornell University, USA.

This is not my personal attack on anyone but an attempt to try and put some sort of balanced historical perspective across in the light of the seemingly emotionally led responses to a more diplomatically considered solution. Lets face it, Saddam has now agreed to allow French, German and Russian surveillance aircraft to over-fly Iraq, as well as accepting a vastly increased number of weapons inspectors. Also, the inspectors are now going into palaces and other sites with next to no warning. The diplomatic and military pressure is actually working.
People 'like me' have a voice and we showed our feelings by marching yesterday with millions of others.

We must all be aware of hidden agendas

Tell us how, and when, and by whom this should be handled. You seem to have all the answers as to what is being done wrong and how not to handle it. How about how to handle this Byron. You are just like all the other protestors.
In how many countries do you see the leader of the country in the front line fighting? I don't think President Bush would last two seconds in a hand to hand combat against a ruthless leader like Saddam. That is pretty ridiculous don't you think.
I too lost family members during these wars that you mention. We sent our brothers, sons, fathers off to this far off land to fight for the freedom of these countries having no idea, if they were dead or alive for months. All for your freedom and mine. Quite a sacrifice if you ask me.
I do not however feel anyone is obligated to the US because of it, but I am getting more in favor of not pumping dollars and lives into all the world and concentrate on the US from what I am hearing.
Give the inspectors more time? for what? Off course they are not finding anything. Isn't it Saddam who has to prove that he has destroyed these biological and chemical weapons that has already been proven that he was making. Isn't Saddam the one breaking a treaty?
Leave him alone, because we don't want to kill any innocent people, o.k I go along with that. But I want to make sure we have the capability to intercept whatever he is going to send us down the road.

Byron ~ I'm glad to hear that you joined the numbers. I heard on NPR that it was estimated at 2-3 million. I also heard that Berlin and Rome joined in the unprecedented ranks, and that the newspapers being carried underarm by the protestors were conservative ones, marking another change in those who deem to protest. Someone else here PM'd me of their plans to go with family to demonstrate in Glasgow on 02/15.

Thanks for reiterating the distinction between Saddam and the "War." Bush came into office in the weakened position of being an unelected President. His economy at home suffers. War and the "when bad times mean good business" adage are well known. Wars and Presidents' popularity are also well-connected. It has also been said that, even on a personal level, Bush Jr. is out to finish what his daddy started and didn't. ASIDE from the oil issues, there is much fuel for fodder when it comes to hidden agendas. Why does no one give much credence to what Saddam will feel free to do knowing it's his last leg? It was also suggested that he may well, himself, add to the casualties of his own people, in attempts to make Bush look worse for the [increased] carnage. I pray that some world leaders will take note and, doing so, have an impact. To see the British, the Australians, the Americans, and the others lose their lives for this [current American] regime just galls and sickens me.

I heard that Clinton said we would do best to focus on North Korea, who's already telling us exactly what they'll do, and then once that were resolved, perhaps world sentiment would be swayed back against Saddam, who then seeing the massive numbers against him, might rethink his position and plans. I'm not saying this is an easy situation to resolve, yet there are many options other than bombing Baghdad into oblivion. I'm glad to see that the world is increasingly becoming aware of the idiocy of that blunderous move.

Thanks for taking the time to lend an historical perspective to this.

~ Elizabeth

I think we would all be very naive if we thought oil did not play a part in this conflict.

Oil is a very important commodity. Saddam is a meglomanic who would happily destroy all the oil fields if he were painted into a corner. He has no regard for his own people even his own family have felt his wrath.

I would truly love it if war did not come from this situation but chemical and biologial matters can be stored in small places and a tiny amount can devestate the world. The inspectors cannot be expected to look everywhere.

There has to come a time when you have to "put your money where your mouth is"

We all have people in the not too distant past who gave their lives so we could be free we owe it to our children to keep the freedom they died for.

It is not up to the US to act on North Korea. South Korea, China, the rest of the world should be acting on North Korea. How can someone be so politically blinded, indoctranated if will, as to see this solely as a Bush agenda bent on war. I agee with Paula, off course oil is an issue, doesn't have to be, but is. Big money again, but not only the Bushs are big money.

the sanctions posed on iraq are an unfortunate non-starter.the people in iraq are in very dire straights.this has no effect on saddam whatsoever.
he did not follow the u.n. resolutions and continues to wag at them.listen to what the inspectors themselves are saying! can we afford to enter a "cold war" with saddam?will we be able to defuse him?

the war that may occur,"courtesy of pres.bush",will not be an all out onslaught.we have two houses to make sure of that.he,as far as i can tell hasn't a snowballs chance in hell in winning the next elections.the economy being shot and all.will a war fix his poll numbers?will he get personal oil?i think no...as far as for joe and jane america,gas prices will skyrocket,because all the oil countrys will back saddam and either refuse to sell or if at all,at exorbrant prices.the rosy oil future,spearheaded by war.and if bushes numbers climb a bit,it will be too little,too late,for the elections.

we dont have a gun pointed at our faces,and the u.n. inspecters have not tripped,fallen and landed on any u.s. range nuclear weapons.oh i forget ,he doesnt have any missiles.lets just leave him to tinker like a good ol' boy,and stay well away.

we are just being alarmist,gulible,bloodthirsty,oilthirsty,triggerhappy,domineering war freaks.we just want to shove our version of democracy down the worlds throat.we are jealous of their culture,and want to steal all they have for all eternity.

i am very proud of america,and what she has acomplished.she has made some horrible mistakes in the past,ones that cost lives.i hope she learns from those mistakes.i hope this does not escalate to war.i hope we can avoid it.but if the need arises...

if there arises a genuine need,for the safety of her freedom and people,america must disarm a dictater, then let it be so.and let her leave in her wake life and good,not death and destruction.leave,underlined.

if this is done sooner then later,there will be no pearl harbor,no hiroshimo.no mass loss of innocent lives.

(as saddam hangs traitor suspects at all hours,he will probably hold his people hostage,or worse.the only way to avoid this is through thorough planning, and stratigy.)

let the boats and bridges be unsold,perpetual,and let there be a guilt -free conscience the right to live,in america.


salutê
elazar

Even in my own country, I am clearly not alone:


"NEVER FORGET WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!!!" [the comment made by the woman who sent it to the woman who sent it to me]

--------------------
"Walking Along Streets of Peace
--------------------

Jimmy Breslin

February 16, 2003

On streets of beauty, the warm people inched along or
stood and chanted and
laughed against a war and for peace and their warmth
made the winter
temperature irrelevant.

They were summer people in winter clothes.

They were the largest and happiest crowd seen in this
city maybe ever,
outside of a war's end in 1945.

There were fathers with children on their shoulders.
There were mothers
holding their young. There were kids walking alongside
their parents. There
were religious people everywhere.

And so many were young. Young students, young married,
young in a city that
belonged to the dreams and love and laughter of youth.

Do you want a life with thrills, years of
exhilaration? Come to New York.

Where yesterday they said they did not want war.

They said it with their presence and with the most
signs of my time in my
city. The signs were against war, and against George
W. Bush, who, for the
first time, was being heralded as a man who lost the
popular vote in this
country by 500,000.

Looking down Third Avenue and Second Avenue, as the
crowds came up to try to
get to the rear of the great crowd on First Avenue,
and then peering as far
down First Avenue as you could see, the size of
throngs caused you to tell
yourself, "maybe a million." Whatever it was, out on
the street it felt like
a million, and it was glorious. A news photographer I
know came along. "I've
been everyplace. I have to say a million." Because of
the Police
Department's reprehensible pens, the crowd was
separated so that there was
not one clear picture of an enormous group that would
cause politicians here
to faint.

The crowd so frightening was made of people who mostly
never had protested
before, who were too young for the Vietnam protests
and who cannot be
classified under any of the old words, "demonstrators"
or "anti-war,"
because they are new and they are real.

War may be a great favorite with a Texas Theocracy,
with a president who
speaks in the first person more than anybody we have
had in decades -- "I'm
sick and tired of waiting" -- and who calls on God to
bless the country as
if no other people made in the image and likeness of
God are alive on earth.

Only the sour people could permit innocent people to
be scared as close to
death as you could do it. "Get duct tape!" her
government told Kristin, a
friend of mine who lives in Washington. So she went
out and got duct tape,
which usually is mentioned in stories about bank
robbers using it to bound
and gag clerks.

Kristin taped the windows and door of her children's
room. She then said she
was ready for a gas attack. She failed to realize that
the attack would
leave her kids as orphans.

The crowd yesterday was herded into a mile of pens,
like the Omaha
stockyards. This was for security. The reason for
security was security.

On our streets of beauty yesterday, gladness was in
the place of arrogance
and meanness. The sole conflict I found, when I
arrived at 66th Street and
First Avenue, the closest I could get to the stage at
51th Street, a young
woman named Leslie Meenan was holding the hand of a
girl who said her name
was, as I spelled it, Camilla. She was 8.

"You're spelling it wrong," she said. "Only one 'l.'"

"You don't know how to spell your own name," I said.

"Yes, I do. You don't."

"She's right," a woman said. Her name was Cara
McCarthy and she was from
Bushwick, in Brooklyn. She teaches at PS 145.

Just ahead was Bob Stratton, who held his daughter,
Fia, age 3. He said he
was from Park Slope and he was in computer
development.

And now as you walked along the edge of one of these
pens, here was a line
of Catholic protests and then a group of
schoolteachers and then everything
seemed to be Jane Burcaw, in a good, warm and
fashionable hat holding a sign
that said, "No War."

"I made it last night," she said.

"Where do you live?"

"Bethlehem. I work at the Moravian Theological
Seminary. I got here at
10:30. I would've been much earlier if I had to."

The number of police and vehicles was unconscionable
in this area, blocks
away from the stage. The people were beautiful and the
overload of police
was irritating and deprived people of their rights.

Somewhere far downtown from where I was standing, they
had police horses on
Second Avenue and people there to protest were behind
the endless metal pens
and somewhere the cattle turned human and people were
arrested.

The mayor of this city and the police commissioner had
been spreading fear
in this city for many days. Their claims were
infuriating. "We know there is
something coming but we can't tell you." If they knew
it was coming and the
people who were doing it knew it was coming, then what
are you keeping a
secret for?

Bet me that they had the same kind of rumor that Colin
Powell tried to sell
at the UN, and on Friday he got carried out on a
shutter.

But this was only passing. What went on yesterday was
an enormous crowd that
turned cold sidewalks into beautiful gardens.

They were the nicest people I've ever been with.

Copyright (c) 2003, Newsday, Inc."

--------------------

"This article originally appeared at:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longi ... 154.column

Visit Newsday online at http://www.newsday.com "

dear lizzytysh,
thank you for sharing that beauiful piece.(pun intended).i hope,dearly,that the future holds warmth and love and peace.
whatever may be,things will work out.i know.

salutê
elazar

I can't help but wonder how Saddam feels when he reads and hears this. I think it was Senator Mc Cain that said today, protest is good as long as we are not protesting for the enemy.