Dark Night of the Soul and Undertow

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:01 am

Could there be a life with just one night?

When we read True Love Leaves No Traces under this kind of light, it takes a different shape. Try it.

As the mist leaves no scar
On the dark green hill
So my body leaves no scar
On you and never will
Through windows in the dark
The children come, the children go
Like arrows with no targets
Like shackles made of snow

True love leaves no traces
If you and I are one
It's lost in our embraces
Like stars against the sun

As a falling leaf may rest
A moment on the air
So your head upon my breast
So my hand upon your hair

And many nights endure
Without a moon or star
So we will endure
When one is gone and far

***

The only difficulty I have is with "So your head upon my breast
So my hand upon your hair" - it demands an athletic effort to sweep the feet of the ground and to reach an etheral mystical sphere of some sort. But for all the rest, it fits.

mat james · Post by **mat james** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:07 am

Quetzalcoatl Tchocolatl,
"of course!" is the best answer for that "one night" of yours.

I suppose space/time exists in the pre-big-bang dark night, as an arrow of potential at least, a child of nothingness, an idea from nowhere.
I like Milton's view of that moment that goes something like this,
(...for Thou from the first was present and Dove-like, sat brooding o'r the vast Abyss and made it pregnant)--- from Paradise Lost.
Your "one night", before, throughout and beyond time could be called the womb of the big bang! What a fertile thought.
I suggest Einstein was onto it with his relativity theory and his clever little maths poem, E=mc x c
But I get lost in all that: and still end up back in the mist that leaves no scar on the hill, "the cloud of unknowing".
And yes, I like being lost 'cause you never know what you may find.
Thank you for these Platonic children,(my thoughts), inspired from your breast by your not so gentle touch,and your stammerings, as you scratch my head, through cyberspace!

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:07 pm

In fact, I was answernig to dubman, mat james, and doing this I was adressing this to anybody who reads the thread.

I am amazed that you could imagine that I am stammering "not nice" shot at you through cyberspace. Once again I wonder how the fact to be deprived of some physical contact (no please, don't see 2nd, 3rd, 4th meanings) while having a conversation could lead SO OFTEN to misunderstandings of this sort.

I have few explanation :

1) It is like that in real life, usually. People are often rude with each others, recognizing goodness is a luxury reserved for identified socially powerful people who are not cruel. All the other "little" good people are tagged "stupid" by "little" rude people, because the last are too stupid to be huge controlling bully and they think the good people are even more dump then they are - for me with people who play this game of being rude to each other for "fun" I have the impresson of being in a party for 5 years old. So. I just want to check them in case one or many would injure badly another one, or I grow tired of the childish environment, feeling alone because I can not communicate really. So. Again.

2) We are all part of an experience (hello humanponeysss2000) and "they" send subliminal images on the screen - the eyes don't catch them, but the brain registers - and that all makes us paranoiac, turning a friendly post into a letter written with the blood of dead ennemies.

3)

4) There is evil trolls who "suggested" behind the curtain, that dictate their will by manipulative behaviors and twist intentionnally (or not, they may have a mind complitely "out of order") the reality to their sole advantage, like cancer cell(s).

5) I have to go finish my things. Cheers. And imagine.

Imagine all the people.

Leaving... I mean "living"....

mat james · Post by **mat james** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:27 pm

amigo,
"stammerings" are the reminders of divine/mystical presence in everyday life.
Cruz uses this word and I stole it from him. It is a compliment to you.
Good conversation always leads to new ideas. Good Mystical poetry does the same and I suppose this is why it lasts.
Your ideas/poem (posted) sent me off on a thread of thoughts which I genuinely enjoyed as it was full of symbols, which always get me going off on a tangent!
This is why I enjoy the songs of Leonard Cohen so much; not only the words, but the words in union with his haunting melodies. Somehow he opens doors to my unconscious, so to speak and my imagination takes off and connects with all sorts of fanciful notions and connections.
When enjoying art/poetry/ideas, I enjoy them for where they take me as much as discovering the author's intended meaning.
I think Cruz would enjoy the "stammerings" of Leonard,and, maybe ours as well?

Dubman, Zen practictioners strive for Satori (mystical oneness of a sort) and I have never heard of them getting there through "love", (more likely a belt around the ears!) yet they still arrive at their destination. Buddhism, they say is not a religion and yet their goal and experience is a gnostic (direct knowing) one as I understand it.
Leonard spent a lot of time practicing their techniques.
What is your view on this way to gnostic union that does not need to go via "love"? It would make sense to some on this thread/forum, but does it make sense to you ? Or am I out of order?

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:52 pm

OK amiga, yes cohen is a must, really. I have to go eat my encheladas.

I was a pleasure to meet you - see you later.

dubman · Post by **dubman** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:29 am

Stammerings...hmm.. I love that idea. To me it means that our human condition is imperfect, our lives consist of "failures" of not living up to our expectations. But at least we don't lose sight of the goal, so we keep trying, and that is the process of transformation.
About Buddhism and "love". Strange you should mention that Mat, I wanted to talk about Buddism. I think that even if one isn't aware of it, the only transforming power for the good is Love. When I say the word "love", of course I don't mean anything sentimental..."love" may have been hijacked to refer to all manner of confusion, that's why I often use the word with a capital "L" - I'm talking about God's Love.
Anyway what I wanted to say was that it would be great if people saw the good in each other, co-operation instead of conflict. And I admire Buddhism greatly - I wish we could have more unity between Christians, Jews , Buddhists, Muslims - in fact everyone. We have so much more in common than we realize, especially our absolute need and longing for real Love.

mat james · Post by **mat james** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:49 am

Yes Dubman, the word "love" is a bit general in meaning in the English language.
I believe the Latin based languages have more specific words like agape and amore etc. The Greeks must have something to offer here as well? Perhaps other tongues have said it better?
I am fascinated by the various cultural "stammerings" around this topic and I don't find the word "love" adequate/accurate.
Buddhism suggest that human consciousness is asleep and occasionally it awakens.
It is a bit like the Australian Aboriginals existing in everpresent "Dreamtime"
I'm looking for a word other than love. But that is my problem!
Someone out there must have a "word" somewhere out there?

dubman · Post by **dubman** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:11 am

I know about the possibilities for misunderstanding when using certain words like "love". I suppose the English language is not perfect. Still I would stay with the word "love" and my capital "L" for writing. Speaking does often require some explanation of what you mean when you use the word "love". Especially if you are talking to someone you don't know very well.
Or one could say "eternal Love" to make it more clear... I think ones attitude is really more important than anything else. A person can have a really positive loving attitude and embrace all of creation and be very humble, but may not be very "poetic" with language.

Dem · Post by **Dem** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:38 am

- I wish we could have more unity between Christians, Jews , Buddhists, Muslims - in fact everyone.

We will have when we will stop being Christians, Jews , Buddhists, Muslims.

that's why I often use the word with a capital "L" - I'm talking about God's Love.

God doesn't exist.
Neither his "L"ove.

Dem

Dem · Post by **Dem** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:51 am

The Greeks must have something to offer here as well? Perhaps other tongues have said it better?

Yes. We have.

Agape and Erotas.

Agape=Love as in a mother's love for her child.

Erotas=Eros as in the sensual love between two human beings.

Big difference between the two.

Lucky the ones who at some time in their relationship
will move from Eros (which usually is short-lived) to Love (which can last
for ever and sometimes even beyond Death).

There is also the Agape in it's Christian meaning but which Freud showed
why psychologically is an impossibility.

Dem

(Freud towards the end of his life used the Greek terms
and Eros to believed humans were driven by two conflicting central desires, Eros the life drive (incorporating the sex drive) and Thanatos death, destructive drive.
His wish was that finally Eros will win over Thanatos.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:49 pm

"L" does the job.

Well, Dem, Love exists in the Universe (call it God, or not if you want, or whatever). First. Second it exists in humanity if human beings are co-creating it in harmony with Universe. So. If Freud would have know that and if he could have computer to tell the world, poor fellow (here I hope, people, that you are well aware by now, about me being a joke).

Only to create it is often more difficult then not, although it is always the most rewarding thing to do in file.

I think that you dream an impossible dream Deam - people stopping to be what they are, stopping to be different in there own way for someone or some groups. I guess it would bemore realistic to hope that someday, respect of differences will be one of the most important value of humanity.

In all those religions/philosophy that you name there is the germ of Eros and Thanatos, right now we are just "choosing" Thanatos.

If you listen to people-who-know-well-about-their-stuff they will read you such magnificent passages of sacred text in all "discipline" which are pure Love and Freedom.

Cheers, people, 8:48, and I am late.

[/i]

Dem · Post by **Dem** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:11 pm

I think that you dream an impossible dream Deam

I am not dream Deam.
I am the dream Team!

D(T)e(a)m

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:21 am

mat james · Post by **mat james** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:06 am

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:52 am