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I think that’s pretty subjective, what you may deem to be mean spirited another person may deem to be friendly. (I’m not saying that things never go to far).
Just thinking of the thread this most recently popped up in. I saw a legitimate critic about a specific rhyme and a discussion without personal attacks. When Fish wants to be, he is very good at critiquing. His suggestions despite how they are packaged are usually sound.
I’d feel different if the poster had indicated that he wasn’t receptive to suggestions or if he had indicated that he was finding the discussion unpleasant but the poster in that specific thread seems pretty confident. I don’t know if you had asked that person privately how they like comments or if they felt offended but I don’t think assuming on somebody else's behalf is always necessary.

Hi all .. it's a really interesting and useful discussion.
As for me .. I just put poems here in case anyone - be it only one - might enjoy them, even one ... if not, I will have wasted only an instant of your time.
Regarding the specific critique I think you have in mind .. the love/glove duality (!) ... it was indeed helpful and did make me think harder.
But still, for me the main purpose is to share the joys of poetry and our creative writing.
The kindness apparent on this forum is both appropriate and special.
Warm wishes to all.
Richard

You're right, Cate, I'd say it's probably quite subjective. On all those subjective/objective tests I've taken on the Internet and hard copy, my scores come in at about 50/50... some are 52/48... others 49/51... but very close either way. So, that's probably bound to reflect in my perceptions, reflections, and comments on things. Hard for me to be totally analytical. Hard for me to be totally emotional. Sometimes, it might be totally one or the other, but that'd be pretty rare. An exception to that, however, would likely be poetry... some analysis might come in, but pretty much I'll be reacting to it at an emotional level and how reading it affects me in one way or another, what is appreciated about it.

Yes, there was a more recent example, that's true; overall, though, there have been many. The one you quoted for yourself is not the norm and is so mild that it really doesn't hold up for what I'm talking about, and my belief is you know that. There's a very noticeable difference in how various posters are approached and 'critiqued.' Are they given respect? Are they shown kindness? Are they ridiculed? Are they played games with? Are they made the butt of jokes? Do most of these 'critiques' have beneath them a truly helpful, legitimate critique-based suggestion... or are particulars within a poem usually isolated out to be played with, as a cat might play with a mouse... for one's own amusement... and then walked/pranced away from, with no real interest in anything beyond the toy and the chase to begin with; particular line[s] chosen for that and that alone. Won't deny some of the clevernesses that go on in that process because they're there, too, sometimes to often, depending on the timeframe. Overall, though, not really serious feedback, at all. Some tidbits that are helpful, sure; but overall, not so much that's truly helpful. More of a game than anything; probably often as not to mitigate against boredom in a courtroom. Some posters are de facto given favour; others are de facto denied it.

When you're in a more favoured position, my guess is that your sharing a poem feels differently than if your gesture is to share something you've written, even your attempt to write a good poem, and it's turned into mincemeat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo-tCNtFI10

When this section becomes filled with professional poets in true workshop mode, then, hey... my view is go for it. As we've talked about before, Leonard's small group at McGill was high-spirited in their criticisms... they were at university and seriously involved in the literary art of poetry, and that was more or less agreed upon and accepted; yet, still resulted in some permanent schisms in the friendships between people. That level of agreement for extreme interaction is not the case here, and I don't know of anyone who really thinks it is. I won't answer all those questions in the previous paragraph because they're pretty much rhetorical for me and for others to decide for themselves. Legitimate, serious feedback can be imparted with a certain lightness, even playfulness, without behaviours more resembling that of a court jester-bully, alternately prancing and punching.

Hesitation isn't made in labeling my views as being platitudinal, syrupy sweet, sanguine, etc. I'm very aware of how some view the feedback I give. Now, why might one object to my labeling, in the other direction, the behaviour of those that come off to me as being mean-spirited. The tendency in friendships is to protect and more or less turn a blind eye to behaviours not quite or even nowhere near measuring up to decent, acceptable levels of kindness... and that's human nature to do that. It's also human nature for some to speak up in the face of bullying, though there may be a shred or a thread or a seed of a good point, therein. Of course, the ego wants to say "I can handle it, it's not a problem, it's fine with me," because the fear can be that to say otherwise looks weak. How likely will others post their own, though? As I believe you know, there was once a very wide variety of people posting an equally wide variety of poems here. They weren't professional writers... they came from a lot of different countries and languages, but they posted in English, for readability... and they shared slices of their own life experience.

So, for me, I'll probably always feel better erring on the side of objecting to seeing others' words used as a tool for making fun of other people, bullying, and self-delight in one's own perceived cleverness, at the expense of another. I know it sets me up as a target for ridicule for being a killjoy, not 'getting' it, square, UNCOOL, boring [yawn], over-reactive, or just being too serious. That's something I'm willing to incur for the sake of taking a stand, though, when the feelings of discomfort experienced by myself when reading day after day what so often seems to me to be senseless and juvenile and bullying. I've not really seen where it's suggested that if you feel like that's happening, you wait until the receiving person complains to you, before saying something. No one has complained to me. So, I'll happily accept the Pollyanna or 'interfering' label in return. For me, the goodwill of another and the willingness and desire to share are what are initially being interfered with, anyway. So, with the way I'm responding to it [after quite some time, in fact], the fairest response for me is that somewhere along the line, we all pay a price for being ourselves... and, deep inside, for me, the price feels worth it.

Hoping a lull of non-posting doesn't settle over this section as a result; but also confident that new, inspiring, lovely, exciting, touching, moving, silly, interesting, insightful, historical, outrageously creative poems will eventually appear from regions all over the world. Looking forward

A lovely, fitting comment on the work of Harry Chapin:

Rarely are we blessed with such talent. Harry did not just write songs, he saw below the surface of our daily lives, transferred our pain it into poetry, and elevated the drudgery of our mortal existence with his truth about the challenges of being human. Thank you Harry, my kids grew up singing your songs with me as I played my guitar in the den.

just because...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spGFdXGMw58


And warm wishes to you, as well, Richard... and to everyone else.


~ Lizzy

poetry... some analysis might come in, but pretty much I'll be reacting to it at an emotional level and how reading it affects me in one way or another, what is appreciated about it.

Yes me too, my first reaction is usually emotional - how it felt, how I relate to it. If I've really enjoyed it then my second reaction would be curiosity. I can get excited about structure or sounds or new ideas (that kind of a what are doing? how did they do that?) Some people are like that with movies; I just like to watch the movie and enjoy it but some people are enjoying the lighting or camera angles - it's all good.

~~
Lizzy I know that this topic has come up before I suspect it may come up again regardless of who posts here
but looking at the now …
it feels to me that you are or were getting pretty personal. That you are not just criticizing what or how something was said but the actual person as a person – his character. That bothered me and no I didn’t feel it was a Pollyanna type of moment. The ways that you said you felt some people viewed you (I don’t know how to phrase that) I don’t see you like that all. I do think that you are a compassionate and sensitive woman (I just wanted to make that clear)

I really am uncomfortable with conflict and I think, though we agree on many things, this will be an area we disagree.

Hi Cate ~

What you describe as your reactions to poetry you read is the same for me. Curiosity and wondering how in the world. We take divergent paths only because I'm not a poet [as in don't write poetry vs. being fully-recognized as a Poet], so how they went about doing it and/or what is to be learned from it, doesn't get quite as detailed as it does for you, where you're out there 'in the field' actually doing it. If I had even an initial clue, I would be doing it, too. So, I can 'hit' on techniques once in a while and comment on it, or comment on what I perceive to be a technique, but to turn around and try to replicate it, I'd find myself in an open field, wondering where that technique went... because I wouldn't know how to corral my wandering thoughts into that particular structure.

An alternate to the movie analogy might be enjoying watching a movie or a play as a whole, or focusing on its mechanics of where the actors move on the stage, the costuming, the lighting... is having an audience member yelling at the screen or stage, making their own corrections as to how it should be done. I've appreciated those after-performance discussions with the playwright, director, actors, and the audience feedback and questions are constructive and respectful. We all appreciate different aspects of many things and it's not those differences that are concerning.

You're right and it'll likely be a periodic topic that will resurface, and I'll probably be the one to make that happen. My attempt was to isolate the behaviour from the person, but when the trend is so heavily weighted, it may be bound to seem person-oriented and personal vs. the behaviour itself. In a different situation/venue, what I'm commenting on would be considered heckling, but that term presumes a formal presentation by someone presumed to be accomplished. Change the venue and the status of the one 'presenting' and it becomes bullying. Unfortunately, that process can isolate out the one doing the bullying, which isn't a great personal trait.

Trying to address the actual things said and how they were said would be an assignment too huge and prohibitive, when some of it is just jabberwocky with massive misspellings. An alternative to my addressing the actual things said would be for commenters to do it that way in the first place... with serious and constructive alternatives. Conflict is uncomfortable for me, too, Cate, but when there's a more insidious kind of conflict that's ongoing, where the words and good intent of others are being used as fodder, it has morphed into a conflict that is more like sniping... no one knowing why it's happening or from 'where,' but the ability of the victim to fire back is very compromised. Seeing the apparent 'status' of the sniper makes it all the more difficult and unlikely that there will be a head-on addressing of the initiating behaviour, itself, and will be reduced to trying to 'defend' and explain the cause of what is an unfair attack to begin with. A one-sided jousting where only one is using a sword is not a forthright, honest attempt to communicate or critique. It's an inherent kind of conflict. And too often it results in the person being attacked, via the lack of respect being shown for them as the writer, via the angle that's used for the 'critiqueing.' It may seem that I'm just ruining someone's fun, or a number of people's fun, which would include some who are reading and laughing at it [that killjoy element], and creating conflict with my comments; but it's not a fun process for me to watch happening, and it appears to be primarily self-serving, lacking serious intent, and is totally lacking in kindness. There's no requirement that everyone be kind; and there's no requirement that anyone be prohibited from pointing out its glaring absence.

Even though it can suddenly become uncomfortable for everyone when someone shines a light into the shadows, it's a kind of discomfort that doesn't hold a candle to what's happening from out of those shadows to begin with. Watching that imbalance play out day after day gives me the feeling of discomfort that comes from watching a passive-aggressive, unnecessary kind of 'conflict' [the one-sided variety] that is often merciless and without any serious, critiqueing intent, at all... more of a Romans-with-the-Christians-and-the-lions dynamic. As opposed to being thought of as taking up and fighting the battles that would be fought by another ['if they themselves thought there was a problem'], my decision finally [again] came to be that my right to register my own discomfort with what I'm seeing is at minimum at a par with that of the person[s] creating it, through what they are doing to another[s]. Causing you to feel uncomfortable with my focus and comments doesn't feel good, Cate; from my perspective, though, the feeling of discomfort that results from my pointing out and expressing discontent with a different kind of conflict that's happening is a feeling of discomfort [for others? for you?] that actually has merit, or at minimum is worth incurring. The kind of discomfort you're feeling with the conflict you're perceiving as I'm commenting in these posts, is the same kind of discomfort I feel, watching what I perceive as a beneath-the-surface conflict, a more insidious kind. Or, maybe you mean that you just don't consider any of this conflict, at all... and it's just fine with you. I'm not sure how to read that sentence. For me, it's an inherent kind of conflict and bullying... for you, it's whatever it is for you [but just something you feel is not worth commenting on]. In the end, it may just remain that someone's standing up against the tide [the status quo, an accepted norm] is bound to have an effect all the way around. It really just comes down to whether you're willing to do it or not. Setting oneself up as a target is an understood part of doing it, even to the extent of being labeled as the real one who's creating unnecessary conflict; but that's always been the risk that comes with a person's standing up for what they feel is right, and against what they feel is wrong. Histories are filled with such stands, some more important than others, but the principle the same.

All of this comes with true respect for you, Cate, as I know you to be a compassionate and sensitive woman, as well. It's revealed all the time and is clear in the poems you write and the comments you make.


~ Lizzy