a very good point and one missed by a lot of contributers to this site.
keep up the flow, June
Georges
Eminem
-
George.Wright
- Posts: 1874
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:37 pm
- Location: Bangor, N.Ireland
To June
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
Linda,
I do have Eminem's 'The Eminem Show'. I admit that rap music is not something that I naturally gravitate towards but still, I do like his agressive, brazen delivery style. It is not very musical to me , but still it is a cultural expression that a whole generation identifies with. The aggressive delivery style is slightly reminiscent to me of some of Springsteen (who was the Boss when I was growing up) and also not too dissimilar to Dylan's 70s live albums (Before the Flood, Hard Rain and the recent Live 75). I havent completely delved into the lyrics (it took me 8-9 years to actually 'hear' LC), but that is natural for me. I do like some of the descriptive narratives. As Paula put it an earlier description 'Street poetry works just as good as sophisticated poetry, you work with what you know' ....or words to that effect. Indeed a lot of Dylan is street poetry (minus the expletives) although he is equally adept at sophisticated phrase. I do like to look at the world through someone else's eyes (and time i.e., thhrough the eyes of another generation).
On the negative side, Eminem seems to be just too popular to be any good....I am naturally suspicious of artistes who are too popular, but there have been exceptions, the most notable being Springsteen, who was extremely popular in the late 80s but nevertheless had a lot of substance.
As a final note, I have respect for Barbra Streisand's musicianship, so her words do carry considerable weight for me. So as always, I shall suspend judgment for now...but it is just slightly tilted towards favorable.
I do have Eminem's 'The Eminem Show'. I admit that rap music is not something that I naturally gravitate towards but still, I do like his agressive, brazen delivery style. It is not very musical to me , but still it is a cultural expression that a whole generation identifies with. The aggressive delivery style is slightly reminiscent to me of some of Springsteen (who was the Boss when I was growing up) and also not too dissimilar to Dylan's 70s live albums (Before the Flood, Hard Rain and the recent Live 75). I havent completely delved into the lyrics (it took me 8-9 years to actually 'hear' LC), but that is natural for me. I do like some of the descriptive narratives. As Paula put it an earlier description 'Street poetry works just as good as sophisticated poetry, you work with what you know' ....or words to that effect. Indeed a lot of Dylan is street poetry (minus the expletives) although he is equally adept at sophisticated phrase. I do like to look at the world through someone else's eyes (and time i.e., thhrough the eyes of another generation).
On the negative side, Eminem seems to be just too popular to be any good....I am naturally suspicious of artistes who are too popular, but there have been exceptions, the most notable being Springsteen, who was extremely popular in the late 80s but nevertheless had a lot of substance.
As a final note, I have respect for Barbra Streisand's musicianship, so her words do carry considerable weight for me. So as always, I shall suspend judgment for now...but it is just slightly tilted towards favorable.
Kush I am pleased you looked upon Eminem favourably. In Songs from the life of LC said when he said to his solicitor he didn't think he could sing the solicitor said none of you guys can sing. Or words to that effect.
So when you say Eminem is not musical I tend to agree - none of those guys are musical but they have a certain something. Have you heard David Gray?
So when you say Eminem is not musical I tend to agree - none of those guys are musical but they have a certain something. Have you heard David Gray?
Paula,
Perhaps rap is just another step down the ladder of bad singing from the singer-songwriter rung. If you get hold of some centenarians, they may say that bad singing started in 1927 ?? when Bing Crosby picked up a microphone. Still, there is something, as you say - maybe it is the expression of emotions and ideas.
Also, I'd like to make the point that both LC's 'Democracy' and Dylan's 'Subterranean Homesick Blues' have a sort of rap rhythm and style, the latter more so. Also, as this excellent site informs us, LC has rapped on Elvis on Rolls or something.....
No I haven't heard David Gray....how bad is he ??????
Perhaps rap is just another step down the ladder of bad singing from the singer-songwriter rung. If you get hold of some centenarians, they may say that bad singing started in 1927 ?? when Bing Crosby picked up a microphone. Still, there is something, as you say - maybe it is the expression of emotions and ideas.
Also, I'd like to make the point that both LC's 'Democracy' and Dylan's 'Subterranean Homesick Blues' have a sort of rap rhythm and style, the latter more so. Also, as this excellent site informs us, LC has rapped on Elvis on Rolls or something.....
No I haven't heard David Gray....how bad is he ??????
Kush you would love David Gray Babylon is his best know song but White Ladder is a really good album. My daughter went to see him yesterday at Earls Court. Shame it was sold out I would have liked to go. Anyways it is more profitable to be the writer than the singer.
Subterranean Homesick Blues is one of my favourite Dylan songs. Have you ever seen Dylan live? I went to see him at Blackbushe (I know you prefer Dylan to Cohen) but Dylan could not hold a candle to LC in concert.
You would love David Gray.
I just clicked on view more Emoticons and got the same ones I thought I would put emotion into my post and failed
Subterranean Homesick Blues is one of my favourite Dylan songs. Have you ever seen Dylan live? I went to see him at Blackbushe (I know you prefer Dylan to Cohen) but Dylan could not hold a candle to LC in concert.
You would love David Gray.
I just clicked on view more Emoticons and got the same ones I thought I would put emotion into my post and failed
>>>>>Have you ever seen Dylan live? I went to see him at Blackbushe (I know you prefer Dylan to Cohen) but Dylan could not hold a candle to LC in concert
At present yes, I prefer Dylan over Cohen - but I go through phases. And there are other songwriters that I prefer over both at different times.
Paula, It is very very hard NOT to see Dylan in concert.....he's been averaging 1 concert every 3 days - about 500 concerts since 1997 ("What else would I do in life ?"). He's all over the place, everywhere from small community colleges to Madison Square Garden.
I guess it would depend whose candle we are talking about - yours or mine - I like the energy and unpredictability of Dylan concerts. I also regret that I missed the chance to see LC's Austin concert when I was a mere 4 hour drive from it (I didnt listen to him very much then). In fact, I may have very well been in Austin at the time since I visited it often. Oh well.....ok..It's getting late, I have work tomorrow.
At present yes, I prefer Dylan over Cohen - but I go through phases. And there are other songwriters that I prefer over both at different times.
Paula, It is very very hard NOT to see Dylan in concert.....he's been averaging 1 concert every 3 days - about 500 concerts since 1997 ("What else would I do in life ?"). He's all over the place, everywhere from small community colleges to Madison Square Garden.
I guess it would depend whose candle we are talking about - yours or mine - I like the energy and unpredictability of Dylan concerts. I also regret that I missed the chance to see LC's Austin concert when I was a mere 4 hour drive from it (I didnt listen to him very much then). In fact, I may have very well been in Austin at the time since I visited it often. Oh well.....ok..It's getting late, I have work tomorrow.
I did visit Eminem's website, because to be honest I have never listened to his music, only been given lyrics of his through e-mail. I don't mind rap music, but reading through some of his lyrics to his songs, makes me wonder and can you tell me what good can come from such lyrics? If he is putting the millions that he is making from the sale of this to good use to help the oppressed in some way, would be the only thing I could see. To me it is negative brain washing. My grandchildren are no doubt hearing these songs, but I know their parents are not letting them buy the music with their blessing, and I am very glad they have made that decision.
Linda
What good can come from guns ? what good can come from war ??
Let's keep things in perspective here....and I shall avoid getting into moralistic and philosophical arguments here but for me it has something to do with "the courage for ugliness" as the NY based German singer Ute Lemper calls it. She was not referring to Eminem....she was referring to "immoral and decadent" cabaret music of the 30s in germany that the Nazi's destroyed becoz' they thought it was immoral and decadent.
Please don't ask me what good can come from such lyrics ? I don't know....I don't know what good can come from Leonard Cohen's lyrics either or for that matter anybody else's. Maybe they just open some windows into different worlds....it is your choice whether you want to look through it or not.
Let's keep things in perspective here....and I shall avoid getting into moralistic and philosophical arguments here but for me it has something to do with "the courage for ugliness" as the NY based German singer Ute Lemper calls it. She was not referring to Eminem....she was referring to "immoral and decadent" cabaret music of the 30s in germany that the Nazi's destroyed becoz' they thought it was immoral and decadent.
Please don't ask me what good can come from such lyrics ? I don't know....I don't know what good can come from Leonard Cohen's lyrics either or for that matter anybody else's. Maybe they just open some windows into different worlds....it is your choice whether you want to look through it or not.
Last edited by Kush on Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Kush "a mere 4 hours drive away" gets you almost to Scotland from London that in England is a marathon. I think a mere 30 minutes drive excessive. You take sandwiches and a guide for that sort of journey 
Dylan does not play over here so much as in his native land. He was looking at houses in Crouch End London but I don't think he is moving
I rate Dylan on a totally different level from LC. LC is in my heart Dylan is not but he is still someone I really rated in my youth less so over the years. LC is a constant. Dylan lost his edge over the years - Each to their own.
The last time I can remember him over here was with the Travelling Wilburys and a couple of those have now sadly gone. Also he was due to give a concert a couple of years ago and ended up in hospital with an enlarged heart.
Linda as much as I respect what you are saying about Eninem and his music I do not agree with you and I let my children listen to him (as if I could stop them) and I listen also. Try it and see what you think
Dylan does not play over here so much as in his native land. He was looking at houses in Crouch End London but I don't think he is moving
I rate Dylan on a totally different level from LC. LC is in my heart Dylan is not but he is still someone I really rated in my youth less so over the years. LC is a constant. Dylan lost his edge over the years - Each to their own.
The last time I can remember him over here was with the Travelling Wilburys and a couple of those have now sadly gone. Also he was due to give a concert a couple of years ago and ended up in hospital with an enlarged heart.
Linda as much as I respect what you are saying about Eninem and his music I do not agree with you and I let my children listen to him (as if I could stop them) and I listen also. Try it and see what you think
Paula, Dylan HAS NOT LOST HIS EDGE!!!
Dylan wrote some of his best works in last few years: Highlands, Things Have Changed, Summer Days ...
He didn't lose his edge even in the 80-is, no matter what other people say. Evidence: Jokerman, Blind Willie McTell, Bronsville Girl, Man In The Long Black Coat...
... and back to Eminem:
the question what good can come out of his lyrics is not the right question. The right question is: what is the meaning of his lyrics? Verbal violence is not new, and it wasn't fun when it was. He addresses problems of poverty and violent life? Does he realy? I don't think so. What did you learn about slums from his lyrics that you didn't know before? Did he offer a way out of this rumble? I mean, possible and inteligant way?
And it all wouldn't matter if he was half, no a HUNDREADTH of a poet LC AND Dylan are.
JURICA
Dylan wrote some of his best works in last few years: Highlands, Things Have Changed, Summer Days ...
He didn't lose his edge even in the 80-is, no matter what other people say. Evidence: Jokerman, Blind Willie McTell, Bronsville Girl, Man In The Long Black Coat...
... and back to Eminem:
the question what good can come out of his lyrics is not the right question. The right question is: what is the meaning of his lyrics? Verbal violence is not new, and it wasn't fun when it was. He addresses problems of poverty and violent life? Does he realy? I don't think so. What did you learn about slums from his lyrics that you didn't know before? Did he offer a way out of this rumble? I mean, possible and inteligant way?
And it all wouldn't matter if he was half, no a HUNDREADTH of a poet LC AND Dylan are.
JURICA
Jurica,
I have made that very point with Paula re' Dylan in a lenghty personal message. It is funny that you should pick up on it too. But I admit as recently as 6 months ago I used to think the same. Well, we live and we learn......
About Eminem... I really don't have to justify (beyond reasonable time and space) why or why not I like something. Sometimes irritation sets in when I try to do that or when I run into brick walls. At any rate when I listen to music I don't listen with a premeditated intent of learning something, although that happens often enough.
As Jurica said elsewhere...Don't be so sure.
I have made that very point with Paula re' Dylan in a lenghty personal message. It is funny that you should pick up on it too. But I admit as recently as 6 months ago I used to think the same. Well, we live and we learn......
About Eminem... I really don't have to justify (beyond reasonable time and space) why or why not I like something. Sometimes irritation sets in when I try to do that or when I run into brick walls. At any rate when I listen to music I don't listen with a premeditated intent of learning something, although that happens often enough.
As Jurica said elsewhere...Don't be so sure.
Ooooooooh someone's in a bad mood.
Kush did make the same point Jurica and I am prepared to concede the edge might have been blunted by me. On that basis Kush is sending me a copy of his more recent work - so at present I reserve judgment.
I have to say Dylan was and (possibly) still is a powerful force. I hope to stand corrected.
Now about Eminem. You have made you mind up on him so no point in discussing. I don't think a poet's job is to find a solution so much as identify the cause/problem make people aware and wax lyrical on it. They are not social workers.
Kush did make the same point Jurica and I am prepared to concede the edge might have been blunted by me. On that basis Kush is sending me a copy of his more recent work - so at present I reserve judgment.
I have to say Dylan was and (possibly) still is a powerful force. I hope to stand corrected.
Now about Eminem. You have made you mind up on him so no point in discussing. I don't think a poet's job is to find a solution so much as identify the cause/problem make people aware and wax lyrical on it. They are not social workers.
Without quoting some lyrics of Eminem's, which I long ago asked that some of redeeming value be done so with [nothing has appeared here], I'd like to clarify that it is not the sound of his voice and/or the music [see Bing Crosby reference] that I am concerned with. I actually like the sound of rap music. I am very drawn to its rhythms and vocal syncopation.....have you ever tried vocalizing along with one and keeping up? I am fascinated by the ability to pack in so much lyric in such short measure. I also find the on-stage movement, in wide-stepped time with the music, of rappers rather mesmerizing. The visuals and the sound of rap are not offensive to me. It is neither of these that has created my aversion to Eminem. I also remain very open to viewing the world through another person's/community's/culture's eyes.
As we list some of the "renegades" of years gone by, I cannot include Eminem in their category, as when we think of what are the limits to offensiveness, or any normal/abnormal boundaries for same, and we compare the content of their lyrics with those of Eminem, we are still left with a huge abyss between them. With the others listed by other posters here, the "extreme" songs did not constitute the whole or the majority of their work, but rather were part of a body of work that went a number of different directions. In categorizing Eminem's lyrics, what else is left beyond the extreme negative. It appears to me that he has taken them to their natural extreme. He is venting, okay ~ as was Tupac, etc. ~ however, where does he take anything beyond the mere venting and exploitation of all extremes..... I feel his lyrics are quite suggestive of the need for therapy; however, part of the therapeutic process is resolution, or at least the seeking of it. I see none of this in what I've read of his lyrics.
I still have The Last Poets [out of NYC] album, that I bought in the 60s-70s, which I have often referred to as "the original rap." I loved the album then and I still love it now. I find some of the concepts in the lyrics [literally] "revolutionary"....and considering those times, with Black Power, the Black Panthers, etc., I'd have to say they are.
I very much liked Tupac [Shakur] and someone I know still owes me a lobster dinner on the bet which I won that he did not fake his death. I considered his death a tremendous loss to the black community, and most particularly the youth. As a very intelligent, well-read, and philosophically-based thinker, what he wrote did express what I consider [from all I've seen, experienced, and heard] to be the anger and frustration of the projects and the black, project community. Some of it was anti-law enforcement, yet chronicled some of the scenarios that happen there and elsewhere with regard to blacks. However, he did [along with referring to some as "ho"s] honour the plight of the single mother raising children alone in these environments, as well as his own mother. He was entrenched in this community and appeared to feel all the conflicts of same. His anger against the prejudice of the white world, etc. is in my mind legitimate. With whatever opportunity presents itself, I watch Specials and read articles on him.
He had not risen to the levels of Martin Luther King, Jr., or Malcolm X, or some of the others. However, I believe he was headed in that direction. He already had the young community engaged and seemed to be turning in a more positive direction with his music and thinking, in terms of making a difference and transcending the environment.....and I believe would have brought many of the youth along with him. I feel that his attachment to the street life is what resulted in his death....a shameful loss. I consider his perspectives as authentic to the environment from which he came and where he lived, and which he refused to "abandon" in the name of success.
To cite just a couple lyrics from memory of Eminem's, I have a difficult time believing that the environment which he reportedly/allegedly represents really aspires to hanging from a tree by their penis, or throwing their dead grandmother's body up on a porch, or sexually impaling their own mother with objects. Forgive me if I have some of these details minorly misarranged, but they are close enough to not make a difference.
I can't recall which rap mogul is behind Eminem [I've lost track of who has and hasn't been murdered], but I believe it's Suge. What I do know for certain is that whoever it is, they are [not unique to the exploitive recording industry] greed-based, and in Eminem, they found a "hook" for the white youths, particularly male. For those who had "co-opted" the black rap, they now had their own "anti-hero," or "hero of anti-" ~ even bigger money to be made. I feel that Eminem represents a marketing scheme, and whereas Tupac did as well, he was authentically and reality-based, at the least far moreso than Eminem.
Barbra Streisand in many and large ways has been ostracized by the film industry, and I believe she very likely has an openness to the underdog that arises out of that. Eminem has created a fair deal of controversy. However, Barbra's perspective of him is simply another example for me that my deep admiration of someone [which I now and always have had with Barbra] does not mean that I feel they're correct in every thing they say or believe, or that I have to agree with them. If Leonard were to tout Eminem as being anything other than "interesting/intrigueing," etc. I would disagree with him the same.
There's certainly more that I could say; however, I've provided plenty already for any/all to seize upon for disagreement. I'm not really prepared to launch into more than I already have; however, after reading these posts, I've just felt compelled to comment [again].
~Lizzytysh
As we list some of the "renegades" of years gone by, I cannot include Eminem in their category, as when we think of what are the limits to offensiveness, or any normal/abnormal boundaries for same, and we compare the content of their lyrics with those of Eminem, we are still left with a huge abyss between them. With the others listed by other posters here, the "extreme" songs did not constitute the whole or the majority of their work, but rather were part of a body of work that went a number of different directions. In categorizing Eminem's lyrics, what else is left beyond the extreme negative. It appears to me that he has taken them to their natural extreme. He is venting, okay ~ as was Tupac, etc. ~ however, where does he take anything beyond the mere venting and exploitation of all extremes..... I feel his lyrics are quite suggestive of the need for therapy; however, part of the therapeutic process is resolution, or at least the seeking of it. I see none of this in what I've read of his lyrics.
I still have The Last Poets [out of NYC] album, that I bought in the 60s-70s, which I have often referred to as "the original rap." I loved the album then and I still love it now. I find some of the concepts in the lyrics [literally] "revolutionary"....and considering those times, with Black Power, the Black Panthers, etc., I'd have to say they are.
I very much liked Tupac [Shakur] and someone I know still owes me a lobster dinner on the bet which I won that he did not fake his death. I considered his death a tremendous loss to the black community, and most particularly the youth. As a very intelligent, well-read, and philosophically-based thinker, what he wrote did express what I consider [from all I've seen, experienced, and heard] to be the anger and frustration of the projects and the black, project community. Some of it was anti-law enforcement, yet chronicled some of the scenarios that happen there and elsewhere with regard to blacks. However, he did [along with referring to some as "ho"s] honour the plight of the single mother raising children alone in these environments, as well as his own mother. He was entrenched in this community and appeared to feel all the conflicts of same. His anger against the prejudice of the white world, etc. is in my mind legitimate. With whatever opportunity presents itself, I watch Specials and read articles on him.
He had not risen to the levels of Martin Luther King, Jr., or Malcolm X, or some of the others. However, I believe he was headed in that direction. He already had the young community engaged and seemed to be turning in a more positive direction with his music and thinking, in terms of making a difference and transcending the environment.....and I believe would have brought many of the youth along with him. I feel that his attachment to the street life is what resulted in his death....a shameful loss. I consider his perspectives as authentic to the environment from which he came and where he lived, and which he refused to "abandon" in the name of success.
To cite just a couple lyrics from memory of Eminem's, I have a difficult time believing that the environment which he reportedly/allegedly represents really aspires to hanging from a tree by their penis, or throwing their dead grandmother's body up on a porch, or sexually impaling their own mother with objects. Forgive me if I have some of these details minorly misarranged, but they are close enough to not make a difference.
I can't recall which rap mogul is behind Eminem [I've lost track of who has and hasn't been murdered], but I believe it's Suge. What I do know for certain is that whoever it is, they are [not unique to the exploitive recording industry] greed-based, and in Eminem, they found a "hook" for the white youths, particularly male. For those who had "co-opted" the black rap, they now had their own "anti-hero," or "hero of anti-" ~ even bigger money to be made. I feel that Eminem represents a marketing scheme, and whereas Tupac did as well, he was authentically and reality-based, at the least far moreso than Eminem.
Barbra Streisand in many and large ways has been ostracized by the film industry, and I believe she very likely has an openness to the underdog that arises out of that. Eminem has created a fair deal of controversy. However, Barbra's perspective of him is simply another example for me that my deep admiration of someone [which I now and always have had with Barbra] does not mean that I feel they're correct in every thing they say or believe, or that I have to agree with them. If Leonard were to tout Eminem as being anything other than "interesting/intrigueing," etc. I would disagree with him the same.
There's certainly more that I could say; however, I've provided plenty already for any/all to seize upon for disagreement. I'm not really prepared to launch into more than I already have; however, after reading these posts, I've just felt compelled to comment [again].
~Lizzytysh
I don't think it is their job to find solutions anymore than it is up to all of us to find solutions. However they are in a great position to be heard beyond all of the rest of us, and why not make it positive. To me it is like how you live your life, if you are cussing, complaining, negative your day will most likely go that way. These kids being bombarded with lyrics like these just blows me away. These people are in it for the money plain and simple and I don't think their concern goes much beyond their own bank account. LC being the exception and I am sure that there are numerous others, and it shows in the long run. I would bet Eminem is not around for the long haul.
Good thing we all have our own taste and opinions it makes life interesting.
Good thing we all have our own taste and opinions it makes life interesting.
Linda
I agree with you, Linda, in that it is not their responsibility to come up with solutions ~ however, these "figures" know well their high level of visibility, as well as their ability to influence the young, who is their targeted audience. They know that in their dress, attitude, and speech, they are often emulated by their youthful followers. I am not going to go to the extent that profanity and sexual references are to be excluded from artistic/expressive endeavours. However, if anyone cares to go to Eminem's site and sample the reading/listening to of lyrics, I dare say that I would not stand alone in saying that his go beyond the pale and make a very strong case for verbal pollution, with little [and from what I've seen, no] redeeming value. It's spewed out....yet nothing beyond, of value, appears to follows. I've certainly not read any lyric of every song, as I've chosen to use my "garbage in = garbage out" filters and finally stopped looking for something I could cite as having inherent value. If anyone chooses to do the research, I remain open to acknowledging that he did write a song that I could get behind....and defend on at least some level.