UK Elections 2005

[Henning]

Since we are married Elke and I have an agreement about our decision rules. She decides which cars we buy, which countries we visit, which friends we are nice too, plus a few more. The difficult decision are put on my shoulders: Who's the best Pope for us, who's the best Kanzler for us and who is the best President for my favorite football club.

[Paula]

Jonnie - London has a massive black economy and failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants tend to flock to parts of Britain where they can merge and disapear and London is probably the best place to do that. I really wish I were as tolerant as you on this issue. You have economic AS and you have genuine AS. I have to run to catch a train now but I will catch you later.

[lizzytysh]

This Asylum issue is beginning to sound like U.S. political debates. The doctor situation cited reminds me of a very similar one with a man with a doctoral degree [don't think it was in the medical field] from Cuba, here doing migrant work.

[Ghoti]

Is anyone on this forum old enough to remember when Labour was a synonym for Socialism?

[Ghoti]

What you really have to ask yourself when you go to vote is whether voting for the official Right is better than voting for a wolf in poodle's clothing. I personally believe that you should always vote although in this case I'm just glad I'm too young and too foriegn to vote either way.
You may be interested to hear that we're not even having democratic elections in Ireland anymore; the current presidant has decided to run again and everybody else in the country thought it was too expensive to hold an election, so, no one ran and the election was called off.

[Paula]

Jonnie wrote:

A few years ago I knew an Iranian married couple who sought asylum in the UK with their two year old son. They were persecuted and hounded in Iran for speaking out about health care shortages and there was no doubt that they faced cruel punishments or even death if they returned.

What you are talking about there is genuine asylum seekers what I am concerned about is economic AS and illegal immigrants. This country is and always has been welcoming to genuine AS and I hope always will be. The influx of EAS and IL is what is causing the problem. And it is a major concern.

Ghoti where are you from and how did you end up in Ireland. I agree with you about always voting it is a right people died for.

Henning you sound like you have an extremely well-balanced relationship what a sensible man you are

[Jonnie Falafel]

So how do you sort the sheep from the goats Paula? When someone comes to the UK and tells a harrowing story of persecution how do you assess whether or not it's true? You have to take in on face value and allow them entry to the UK while investigations are carried out. The tories wouldn't be allowing them into the UK at all they want assessment done somewhere off shore... but don't specify where. Which country would want to do this for us? Then there's the problem of how you tell an asylum seeker "sorry sir/madam (or child because many are!) we've fulfilled our quota so you'll have to return to the place you fear most in the world".

Finally, Asylum Seekers can end up working illegally while their claims are assessed but only because the law doesn't allow them to work legally. And what jobs do you find asylum seekers taking Paula? It ain't city brokers is it? It's usually the shitty contract jobs that nobody else will do. Moreover, they do them for a pittance because they don't enjoy the protection of a minimum wage.

[Paula]

You want an Albanian plumber or a Kosovan electrician no problem come down here. Cash Only. Wash your car we have a yard here drive in pay the £8 cash. We have loads of British people who are jobless relying on benefits, spare them a thought too and spare a thought for the British kids who feel sidestepped.

Walk pass Lunar House in Croydon and tell me immigration is not a major problem or live in an area where kids born in Britain cannot get on a housing list for love nor money. Why travel across Europe through friendly countries to get to England to claim asylum, why, because we are a soft touch.

Jonnie I know you feel strongly about this I do too.

[Jonnie Falafel]

Actually under European rules an asylum seeker must claim asylum in the first safe European country (convention signatory) they enter. If they travel to the UK, through France for example, they can be repatriated to France to make their claim for asylum. This has been the case since 1999.

I have great sympathy for those who can't get into social housing or a foot on the property ladder, but don't blame asylum seekers for this. One of the key features of the dispersal programme introduced in April 2001 was that asylum seekers should be dispersed to places where there is spare housing capacity. Moreover, not all of the housing is provided by local authorities. It's actually a mixed economy of housing with a lot provided by private landlords. Take Kirklees for example (around Huddersfield, not Scotland like it sounds!). They had massive spare capacity in council houses going unused. Sure it was mostly substandard but it was standing empty. Some of this has been used for asylum seekers.

[Paula]

Actually under European rules an asylum seeker must claim asylum in the first safe European country (convention signatory) they enter. If they travel to the UK, through France for example, they can be repatriated to France to make their claim for asylum. This has been the case since 1999.

Fine in theory but they always happen does it. And if I remember correctly not too long ago weren't there a good few AS refusing to be rehoused in places too far north as they were not happy with the quality of housing. But the housing was deemed acceptable for the British people who had to live there. How many friendly countries do Albanians have to go through to claim asylum in this country.

[Reuben]

Jonnie wrote:



What you are talking about there is genuine asylum seekers what I am concerned about is economic AS and illegal immigrants. This country is and always has been welcoming to genuine AS and I hope always will be. The influx of EAS and IL is what is causing the problem. And it is a major concern.

It is worth reflecting on how useful such a distinction is. The current sensibilities articulated here by paula are that politiacla asylum seekers are k but economic asylum seekers as she calls them are not. What this means in effect is that if somebody is running away from intolerable political circumstances then we should aid them, yet if they are trying to lift themselves out of intolerable poverty, if they are trying to move out situations of inadequate halthcare, malnourishment impure water supplies etc then they are undeserving. Anyone more intelligent than the average sun journalist would see that this is a ridiculous distinction. Britain is one of th richest countries in the world (4th richest i believe). If we can spend 3 million pounds a day on nuclear weapons yet at the same time feel compelled to jealously guard our nation and our riches with a draconian policy on asylum seekers tht says something awful about our society and our priorities.

PAULA also attempts to link asylum seekers to the balck market. If such a link exists it is likely to be because as Jonnie Falafel showed there are enormous restrictions on the right of asyum seekers to work not because of asylum seekers themselves.

FINALLY PAULA your first post implied that a root cause of crime was immigration/asylum seekers. Do you have any statistics on the proporition of cirmes committed by asylum seekers/immigrants or are your opinions simply informed byanecdotes in the daily express?

[Paula]

Reuben - thank you for taking the moral high ground. How big do you think this little island is. How many more do you think can be crammed here. Britain is a bastard nation and I would have thought a lot of us came from immigrant parents over the years. I did. But if you think the answer is to open the floodgates and let everyone come over I think you are wrong.

I am not attempting to link AS to the black market. I am saying there is a thriving black market and they are part of it.

Thirdly I am not saying the ROOT cause of crime is IL/AS. They are a cause and if you dispute that what are your reasons for disputing.

I feel I have stumbled across a convention of Social Workers. How is Cambridge nice and unaffected largely by a massive influx of AS/IL.

Whether or not we are one of the richest countries in the world please let the people who are living in sub-standard housing with no dentists, on benefits and no jobs on the horizon know how bloody rich this country is because they don't see it.

[mickey_one]

I agree with all Mr Falafel has said and acknowledge that on these matters I could nver have written so articulately and knowledgeably as he has.

In the same way I agree with him, I expect he agrees with Peter (this is a Middle Eastern food pun).

[lizzytysh]

Whether or not we are one of the richest countries in the world please let the people who are living in sub-standard housing with no dentists, on benefits and no jobs on the horizon know how bloody rich this country is because they don't see it.

I agree with this, Paula. Same applies here.

Just heard this morning on the radio [will need to hear it again, to ensure I heard correctly] that the hurricane victims who received hurricane aid in the way of funds for repairs, etc. have just learned that it's been decided that their aid is taxable, so now they find they owe thousands in taxes, April 15 the deadline for filing, of course. The decision-makers have decided that this new policy/law/whatever is not retroactive to previous years, though. What a reprieve .

Where's the name-tag table for this Social Worker's Convention? I sure hope they spelled my name right .

[Jonnie Falafel]

Paula, since dispersal began (april 2001) there is nowhere in the UK that doesn't have asylum seekers. Most significant conurbations will have some asylum seekers ...... some more than others.

When asylum seekers are offered housing they are offered it by the National Asylum Support Service (NASS)on a strictly no choice basis. If they refuse to live where they are placed then they have to make their own arrangements for accommodation. This does happen especially where, say, an asylum seeker knows someone in Southampton but is being dispersed to Glasgow. Wouldn't most of us prefer to be where we know someone? Asylum seekers are just like everyone else when it comes to the desire for human company.

I helped take an asylum seeker to his allocated accommodation in Bradford and when he got there he found he could not use the steep steps in the old back-to-back house because he had a muscle wasting disease. This meant he couldn't get to the bedrooms or the bathrooms. I contacted NASS on his behalf and their response: "tough". It was that or nothing!

I am aware of the plight of the unemployed - those trapped on benefits, living on sink estates with apalling services. I am aware of the crime and illness that blights their lives and stifles the potential of the young. I am aware that many people work shitty jobs for long hours for naff all money. My defence of asylum seekers in no way detracts from my defence of British born poor. Voting Tory to solve the "problem" of asylum & immigration sure as hell ain't gonna help the underclass.