leonardcohenforum.com

If I ever come back as a troll, I want to warn you right now :

My nick will be : Nystagmus. Shake in your boots and pray that I'll never dare... (but if a false Nystagmus ever comes by, I want to warn you : it will not be me)

Hum... true love seems to leave traces in the Royal Family, at least.

Hi all, and thank you for discussing this topic. I resist the impulse to reply to every one of you. But I feel that a few things should be added to make my stance clearer.

Tchocolatl - I feel you misunderstood my intentions just a bit. Maybe this is because you rarely go to the poetry section, and there the MPD influence is most obvious. The same "false flaggers" however do post a few lines to the other sections as well. And they might take Manhattan first before they go to Berlin...

I didn't use the word "peace" even once in my opening post. And for a reason. The board doesn't have to be "peaceful", and a controversial discussion, even if it is emotionally enraged at times, doesn't - to my mind - do permanent damage to the forum. Thus I'm not playing the "Why can't we all just get along?" tune.

Do you know that I'm not one of the old timers around here? I came in quite late, and it was at a time of very heated discussions on the Iraq war. But I came in, I ventured my positions, criticized others, I got bashed, and sometimes I was enraged enough to bash back.

And I wasn't referring to the mutual trust that might build up between members of the forum. My point is: there has to be a basic trust, a faith that the person you're discussing with today is the same that you referred to yesterday. When real persons merge into one screen name, or split up into a multitude of screen names, this basic trust is endangered.

"This is the faith form which we start": When I reply to you now, you can be sure that I wouldn't create a new screen name tomorrow in order to fool you. I put the same faith in you. I have to, or it doesn't make sense to talk to you at all.

For a newcomer it will be difficult at times, I agree, to come in. But what, if in addition to all these difficulties you described the general suspicion is added that this new poster is just another invention of Mr. or Mrs. MPD? The position of newcomers will be completely impossible, then.

The "ancient ones", who know each other for a long time, maybe even met in face are in a better position there, it seems. But this might be misleading.

Maybe I succeeded in explaining my position a bit better now.

I agree, by the way, that not feeding the trolls is the right thing to do. But exactly there is the problem. The typical troll doesn't come in announcing "Hey I'm a troll!". You might well end up ignoring most of the posters, namely all those you're not really sure about. Fin de partie, then...

Laurie, Insanitor - reading your post makes me feel that all this is even worse than I had thought when opening this topic.

Especially your post, Laurie, made me feel even less optimistic than yesterday. The way you described your reluctance shows how deep the cuts already are

You wrote:The lack of trust undermines how you read everything, how you react to everything and worse of all it causes a mistrust that can leave your head spinning. Who is lying? Who is telling the truth? Are any of my "friends" lying to me. The latter is the worse. "We" have developed a familiarity with one another over the months or years of being Here. To suddenly question friends, people you trusted is devastating. I know this is cyber-world, but we are real people.

Besides the problem for genuine newcomers who would be taken for "trolls", this is the essential problem I saw arise. I didn't realize however that the poison already started contaminating existing relationships. Maybe this is because I still feel as secure with the few people I came closer to as before.

But, of course, you're right. I find myself ignoring more and more threads in the poetry section. And it's not that easy anymore to gather the momentum it always needs to post.

This may be cyber world, but, yes we are real people, real people on a cyber platform. And in the past we tried to behave like real people, each constituting a consistent person. You couldn't always trust the persons behind the screen names, but you could be quite sure (in most cases) that the "one name, one person" ratio was valid. And if someone wants to change her / his moniker - well there are ways to reestablish the continuity and consistency.

I know this isn't fun anymore. I just force myself to believe that those behind all this still think it is. Maybe - but this is probably a vain hope - they'll realize it isn't fun, it never really was, and then stop their doing.

No cheers for now
but regards

tom

Hi Tom

I wasn't trying to make you feel worse. I guess reading Byrons post made me think a lot about what I meant by "fear". My impression was that the general tone was a bit more trashy, with a lot less ad hominem action than we saw some months ago. Now it just seems that you talk to those you "know" and avoid talking to others in case they are trolls or MPD personae.

I agree that it shouldn't be a big hand holding exercise in group think here, (although it's nice to find similar spirits out there) and one great thing about a forum like this is hearing the thoughts, politics and experiences of other posters and hell, maybe even learning something from them. I haven't lived in fear of having my house bombed thank god, but my parents did, and I think everything is open for comment.

Certainly I admire more the posts of people who can come up with a good argument when required, or who are otherwise into a two-sided discussion of whatever the topic is. And/or a good laugh

I don't know many of you, and certainly not well, but I can identify with some of what Tchocolatl has said, in that it did seem like there was a bit of a club here. But that's life. The world is made up of clubs, but here it is harder to detect the trolls, because as Laurie and Tom have said there has to be some element of trust and straightforwardness. With more trolls and nasty attacks I guess it is natural to stick with those you know.

I don't know why I am saying all this. But to reiterate I hope things improve and it becomes a bit easier to express thoughts.

Byron at first I couldn't understand if you were being sarky or not. The fear you mention is all too real, and I am glad to see you write you are up for discussing it. And yes, you were right!

sorry - just experienced a massive hypo during that last post.

The reason is that this great peculiarity of this board doesn't come without a minimum requirement of trust

Hey, I am just loving it, it was a big laugh as I was watching Mr.Tom-selfrightious guy lamenting and wrangling his wrists, bleeding heart all over him-oh my ohmyo, "how dare this mr.so and so insult us- the group of "beautiful losers"- we were so gracious, so exclusive- mr.Tom and his always sidekick- mr.isanitor.
What is happening to us now?-mr.Tom is crying- (oh, sweet Jesus help me, but I am laughing), this guy whatever his name is, comes up with all sorts of insults, and there is nothin' we can do about it, couse de guy makes no sense. Sure, he does not make much sense, what ever his reasoning is, sure thing-it is annoying.
But still - I do remember, when de sweet mr.Tom and his side dog mr.insinator were chasing me off the board with a broomstick, and it was not wrapped in silk.
Dear god, now I am happy that these sweet gentleman have tasted their own medicine, even more- tis not comin' from me, i'm juss watching - heck muddy it goes, and mr'sweet tom does not like it.
Good, I like it, cause pretentiousness and hypocrisy of tom's Tommy's and sinators went to far, there was no life there, just the smooth after shave.
Even if I hate everything what the guy on the poetry board has written-(don't remember his "partrymembercode" ) I like that it shoot some salt to Tom's ass.

Dear bee,

you're telling lies again. No one has chased you from the board. You had started insulting people, and you weren't ready to accept critical remarks about this.

I - and you can read up, if you don't remember correctly - asked you not to leave the board.

Cheers
tom

PS: The topic isn't about people insulting... Please read again, and you will find out.

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:51 am Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:51 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear bee,

you're telling lies again

sweet, when and what lies have I ever posted? Please, give me a quote? have never lied since age 26, so you better watch your mouth

You had started insulting people,

if you were policeman or a sheriff of the board, to take care and oust de people who are "insulting" others?that would be nice and dandy, i believe you would love the elected office ,,,but- Who elected you?
Yes, you and your sidekick -sinator~ who is able to finish up every thread and KILL it ,- you chased me and kicked me off the LC board

Dear bee,

I won't mess around with you anymore. However, before I sign what will be my last post to you, please allow me a few remarks. (I won't reply to whatever answer you might post.)

1. Neither have you been chased or kicked off the board. You're still there, by the way. If you write someone "chased me and kicked me off the LC board" this is a plain lie.

2. When you use sentences like "Jonnie Falafel- you remind me of dogs barking at the stranger just passing by, for reasons unknown to themselves. Because of their beastly nature which they are not aware of." I call this an insult. You may call it a compliment, if you like. To do so hasn't got anything to do with playing the "policeman or a sheriff of the board". It is an opinion I still uphold. Saying things like that is nasty behaviour.

3. I always said that no one should be "kicked" because of behaviour like that. And the last time I posted to one of your contributions before today I wrote:

Dear bee,

don't go. This is free speech territory, and I don't think anyone ever ran up to the site admin to cry in his lap "Oh, Jarkko, I've been so rudely insulted, please ban the contributor that's known as this-or-that-nick."

Is this what you call "you chased me and kicked me off the LC board"?

4. I didn't start this topic to talk about anybody being rude to anybody else. Thus your remarks were remarkably off-topic. But it is your right to post whatever you like. I started the thread, but I don't own it.

It seems, however, that you're not one of the persons I complained about. You might be rude sometimes, you might behave nasty, but you're consistently "bee".

And now sting on, dear bee.

Cheers
tom

Dear Tom ~

I just want to clarify that when I said, "I'm not given to expressing that nature of thought on my own, or generally, even joining in. It's too close to the lament of "Why can't we all just get along?" That has always seemed to me an impotent questioning." ~ I wasn't saying that you were whining or lamenting, via that [implied] question. I just used that as an example, with the comment that I don't initiate these type threads, or generally join in, because "It's too close to . . . " ~ however, that doesn't mean I shouldn't, nor that you're at all wrong in doing so. My responses are to non-respond by ignoring, or address the person directly, vs. talking about them and the issue [though I've done that, on occasion, as well].

What you have said regarding the MPD phenomena is valid. Certainly disagreement, even uproarious disagreement, is not at all the issue. Regardless of what Bee may say, that is or is not insulting, Bee is willing to stand behind what she's said as "Bee," so as to continue the discussion or the duel as "Bee" ~ that is your point, and I agree.

Dear Tchocolatl ~ . That's a great name, Nystagmus. What does it mean? I promise I won't be the one to use it , just really want to know.

Love,
Elizabeth

Hi Lizzy~

I sounds to me if we see that name on the board, we best turn and run!

Linda.

At least we'll know it's not Tchocolatl ~ and that whoever's behind it, will likely morph soon, so running away may mean running into. I'm standing firm. Care to stand beside me? "Safety in numbers" and all that jazz . Whoops ~ not to suggest a clique when I say that.

Are any of us really so important that any of this matters?

Trust your intuition tom (men do have it too ... ) and let the river flows....

Lizzy~

Yes, I believe I'm standing firm as well. I think cliches are kind of cute in a cliched way.

Linda.

I only post as me but that is mostly because I don't have enough personality to split it between too many identities