Leonard on Rolling Stone's List of Greatest Songwriters

[Geoffrey]

I would however be interested in your thoughts on my paragraph as a whole, wherein I suggest a different, more transcendent form of Greatness, far beyond any category dreamed up by Rolling Stone

everything else from your keyboard was excellent, especially what you wrote about 'beautiful losers' - but being the author of the so-called 'walkthrough' i may be slightly biased. ( http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/bl-walk.html )
no, your message was a tonic for the senses, like a glass of fine claret, at least to myself. the tiny part about leonard's poor musical competence but a fragment of cork that ambushed our eyes.

[holydove]

Well, I won't argue, for I'm sure we all love Leonard's work immeasurably! (But if even I can play most of his first four albums on the guitar ...well, NeverMind!).

I would however be interested in your thoughts on my paragraph as a whole, wherein I suggest a different, more transcendent form of Greatness, far beyond any category dreamed up by Rolling Stone ..

Peace to all

Hi rmorgan,

I don't think the compositional brilliance, or greatness, of a piece of music can be accurately measured by the level of technique required to play it. There may be many people who are able to play it, but not many people would have had the inspiration & creativity that it took to compose it. There are many wonderful pieces of music that may be considered architecturally "simple", or easy to play, but that does not at all detract from the brilliance it took to create something of such great beauty, with the power to touch the heart on such a deep level.

But I certainly agree with you that Leonard's art, & his greatness, transcend any category that I have ever heard of.

[rmorgan]

Dear Geoffrey, HolyDove,

You are so very kind.

I'm moved to think what a Greatest (say) 20 Songwriters List would look like, as compiled by Leonard Forum stalwarts ...?!

For example:

1. Leonard Cohen
2. Bob Dylan
3. Lennon/McCartney
4. Jacques Brel
5. Joni Mitchell
6. Van Morrison
7. Hank Williams
8. Brecht/Weill
9. Milton Nascimento
10. Neil Young
11. etc? etc?
..

Worth a go?!

[Squidgy]

Not great musically?
Uh, try listening. On some decent sound equipment. If all yer hearing id Leonard's whiskey-and-cigarette voice straining out the words like an 80 year old trying to push out a 2 week long bout of constipation, well, you're missing a lot, my friend.

I suggest you start with Dance Me To The End of Love. Forget the words for awhile. Listen to the rhythms, the violins, the compositions and the arrangements.
Listen to The Smokey Life and Famous Blue Raincoat, and Night Comes On and Anthem and and and...all of them, especially the later compositions with complex orchestral arrangements, not just the folk songs you can play on guitar. True, Suzanne is not great musically. I can't hear Avalanche without remembering that Leonard's flamenco guitar teacher coitted suicide. But those songs, too, have been dressed up musically for live concerts. Leonard's gotten better with age, like wine.
Consider that Leonard adapted, but did not write, the words for Take This Waltz, The Partisan, and a few others.
Listen to the violins and the harmonies and the cadence of the Waltz! Listen to that French part in The Partisan! Just exquisite, musically! Leonard composed that music !

[lizzytysh]

NOW you're talking, rmorgan!

[LisaLCFan]

...I'm moved to think what a Greatest (say) 20 Songwriters List would look like, as compiled by Leonard Forum stalwarts ...?!

It depends on which stalwarts you ask. Just because we like Leonard Cohen's music doesn't automatically mean that we like singer-songwriters and/or that sort of music in general. I have always thought that it was rather presumptuous for anyone to assume that because I like "x", I must also like "y".

For the record, I hate these sorts of lists, so please excuse me for being snarky.

[lizzytysh]

A lot of us do, Lisa [particularly when they don't align with our tastes ] ~ they're still a bit fun for some to speculate on, though.
I personally like the list overall that rmorgan came up with... and I would have gotten Harry Chapin on it, somehow, as well. His songwriting style is different, but oh so excellent as a storyteller!

[LisaLCFan]

A lot of us do, Lisa ...
I personally like the list overall that rmorgan came up with...

Of course you do, Lizzy. I am glad that you enjoy it, and I shall now bow out and let you all speculate to your heart's content, without the likes of contrarians like me to spoil the party (besides, somebody else on this forum already has that job).

[rmorgan]

Yes, I agree with Squidgy ... LC got better, more accomplished musically, as time passed and his craft and career progressed. I felt for example that New Skin for the Old Ceremony brought a strong step forward in terms of musical variation and arrangement. And I agree with Squidgy's examples overall, and more (Manhattan and Anthem are fabulous pieces of music, for me, as is Alexandra Leaving). But still ... I think it's the combination of music, lyric and, yes, intonation (and tone) that make LC great overall. I once did a reggae version of Suzanne on the acoustic guitar and got pilloried for it!

If you want me to withdraw my remark that L is not great musically, I will! It's just semantics. I'll rather say that, great as he is, and top of my list, the music isn't the very greatest thing about him ... there's so much more.

As for lists of the Great .. yes, they may be tedious or irritating to some, and sometimes fun for some others among us. One good thing I get from them, almost always, is a pointer to artists or songs I hadn't previously listened to. The John Prine suggestion above, for instance. (And perhaps some of y'all might give Jacques Brel a listen .. I'm sure Leonard has! ).

Peace Now.

Richard

[Geoffrey]

As for lists of the Great .. yes, they may be tedious or irritating to some, and sometimes fun for some others among us.

it has probably something to do with neurological science. there is a territory in our brains called the orbitofrontal and frontopolar cortex - an area within the ventromedial prefrontal region where values are perceived and risks are assessed. that region is, in essence, the control room of a person's behaviour. this is where environmental experiences are processed, the nucleus of one's personality. people who enjoy making lists are often considered by psychologists as 'non compos mentis' candidates. their patients are suspected of having the potential for obsessive-compulsive disorder, a form of mental illness involving daily rituals of touching things in a particular sequence, not walking on pavement cracks, putting everything exactly in its place, etc. i don't have any such problems, and i certainly do not habitually compose lists. in other words i am of sound mind, quite normal.

[cohenadmirer]

They are pretending to be ' league tables' - a special kind of rank ordering list which only has true legitimacy if there is some objective way of placing someone in the heirarchy. It's a lot less contentious to rank order on the basis , for example, of how money someone has made -just factual- than to rank order on supposed artistic merit - a matter of opinion.

They clearly provoke enough interest to help sell copy or increase hits on a website , and there are so many around on the internet covering very diverse issues. On British tv at least, ' list ' programmes are on frequently - things like the top 50 funniest moments on tv etc. They have a certain popularity

I'd like to say i couldn't care less about the rolling stone list , but i have to admit it provokes temporary emotions , and so engages me in a way i'd prefer it didn't .So i find myself being , for a few moments , very happy that Bob Dylan is at number 1 and would have been happier if leonard was at number 2 . Perhaps it's just that we look for things that provoke emotions , even if for a little while, especially if they are positive emotions .

[LisaLCFan]

I suppose it depends on what these lists evoke in one. "cohenadmirer" suggests that they provoke emotions in him, presumably as to whether or not he agrees with the choices, and thus how happy, angry, etc, that causes him to feel.

I view the lists differently. To me, the lists are compiled by somebody whose background, education, and tastes I do not know, and yet they are, in essence, telling me what I should like, value, etc, and in what order, which is absurd. There is also, to me, the implicit suggestion that I am incapable of formulating my own thoughts, opinions, and values, and that I obviously haven't a clue as to what music I should be listening to, or what books I should read, or whatever the case may be, and that I require their greater wisdom to inform me on these matters. Of course, there are undoubtedly a lot of people for whom that is true, but I am not one of them. Therefore, I find the entire concept of these lists offensive and condescending, regardless of whatever happens to be on them. But, maybe that's just me!

[lizzytysh]

Hi Lisa ~

I'm not sure of all the implications of your reply to me, but from what I can tell, you misinterpreted my response to you [if you didn't misinterpret it, then I'm even more confused], so I'll clarify just for the record:

You said:

For the record, I hate these sorts of lists, so please excuse me for being snarky.

I responded:

A lot of us do, Lisa [particularly when they don't align with our tastes ] ~ they're still a bit fun for some to speculate on, though.
I personally like the list overall that rmorgan came up with... and I would have gotten Harry Chapin on it, somehow, as well. His songwriting style is different, but oh so excellent as a storyteller!

This was me agreeing with you on "hate these sorts of lists," as with other ones posted in various places on the Forum in the past, many of us have disagreed with the lists being made in the first place [i.e. their true merit, etc.], as well as who is given what ranking. Still, people continue to post the lists and a number of people continue to comment on them, and come up with their own.

You replied:

Of course you do, Lizzy. I am glad that you enjoy it, and I shall now bow out and let you all speculate to your heart's content, without the likes of contrarians like me to spoil the party (besides, somebody else on this forum already has that job).

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say of course you do to me. That I hate them? That I like rmorgan's speculative list? I'm not sure what you know of my own musical tastes to fairly be able to comment on my agreeing with rmorgan's own follow-up list... other than Leonard's rightful position of being number one.

[LisaLCFan]

Hi Lisa ~

[1] I'm not sure of all the implications of your reply to me, but from what I can tell, you misinterpreted my response to you [if you didn't misinterpret it, then I'm even more confused], so I'll clarify just for the record:

You said:

For the record, I hate these sorts of lists, so please excuse me for being snarky.

I responded:

A lot of us do, Lisa [particularly when they don't align with our tastes ] ~ they're still a bit fun for some to speculate on, though.
I personally like the list overall that rmorgan came up with... and I would have gotten Harry Chapin on it, somehow, as well. His songwriting style is different, but oh so excellent as a storyteller!

[2] This was me agreeing with you on "hate these sorts of lists," as with other ones posted in various places on the Forum in the past, many of us have disagreed with the lists being made in the first place [i.e. their true merit, etc.], as well as who is given what ranking. Still, people continue to post the lists and a number of people continue to comment on them, and come up with their own.

You replied:

Of course you do, Lizzy. I am glad that you enjoy it, and I shall now bow out and let you all speculate to your heart's content, without the likes of contrarians like me to spoil the party (besides, somebody else on this forum already has that job).

[3] I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say of course you do to me. That I hate them? That I like rmorgan's speculative list? I'm not sure what you know of my own musical tastes to fairly be able to comment on my agreeing with rmorgan's own follow-up list... other than Leonard's rightful position of being number one.

1. "Implications"? None.

2. Okay, I misinterpreted that -- I thought you meant that you liked the lists. But, as you can see from my subsequent post, I think that we may dislike them for different reasons! That is, however, of no concern to me.

3. I've read a lot of your posts, and thus I thought it was a fair assessment that you would obviously like rmorgan's list.

Peace!

[Kush]

Everyone has their own list:

"Any time someone asks me who my favorite music writers are, I say Mozart, Lightnin' Hopkins, Bob Dylan and Dave Olney. Dave Olney is one of the best songwriters I've ever heard - and that's true. I mean that from my heart." - Townes Van Zandt

"Beethoven is the greatest songwriter ever" - Beth Hart

It does not matter to me if the songwriter/musician/vocalist I like to hear is ranked 50th, 150th or 1500th. If I like to hear that person that is all that matters and that is good enough for me.