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Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:09 pm
by Rob
From "Queen Victoria" by Leonard.
"Queen Victoria,
do you have a punishment under the white lace,
will you be short with her, will you make her read those little bibles,
will you spank her with a mechanical corset.
I want her pure as power, I want her slightly musty with petticoats,
will you wash the easy bidet out of her head?"
Rob.
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:55 pm
by Ghoti
Well he's certainly an ass man -
"I'd love to see you naked,
Especially from the back."
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:40 am
by linda_lakeside
Well, certain things repeat themselves:
- We'll be goin' down so deep, the rivers are gonna weep and the mountains are gonna shout Amen!
- And I knelt there at the delta at the alpha and the omega ...
Then again, as has been said so many times before, his lyrics are so open to interpretation.
Linda.
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:47 am
by tomsakic
Tom Sakic wrote:Also, I heard he has the picture of St Joan of Arc in his wallet.
It was Catherine Tekakwitha, St Kateri......
not Joan.
Btw, Ghoti, I think that's maybe the best lyric he ever wrote...
Also, there's some quote (I think from manuscript) how he goes crazy whenever he sees Suzanne's (not from the song, but mother of his children), well, ass. That's why I think she was at least partially the inspiration behind Take This Longing, not only Nico. Also, one version of story about their meeting says that they (LC and Suzanne; again: not from the song) met in the elevator... Get my point? (That's why I really think that few sources of experiences joined in some songs.)
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:46 pm
by linda_lakeside
Don't you find it coincidental that both Marianne and Suzanne - were first women in songs, then later, different Marianne's and Suzanne's entered his life? Life imitating art?
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:16 pm
by Patyou
Hi
Linda, I may be wrong but I think Marianne was in his life BEFORE he wrote the song.
Patyou
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:31 pm
by Ghoti
I really agree tom. It's beautiful, and so full of emotion - the way he sings it.
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:36 pm
by lizzytysh
Women ~ all parts, all facets.
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:10 pm
by linda_lakeside
Hi Patyou and everybody,
My last post was cumbersome and not so clear, I know.
I thought there was first the Marianne of Hydra (So Long, Marianne) - then another Marianne that entered the scene in the late 70's/early 80's. I may be wrong and if I am, it ain't the first time. Whatever the case, I've tried many times to count (in me noggin') the number of LC songs with women's names in them. With Jennifer Warnes' album, quite a few!
And yes, Lizzy, women,
all parts, all facets, ain't it grand?
Maybe that's one of the reasons women seem to love him so much. Just
one of the reasons.
Linda.
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:53 am
by tomsakic
There was just one Marianne indeed (Linda, they met in Hydra but she came with him to NYC). The "real" Suzanne came after the song
(And don't forget one more Suzanne, Suzanne Vega
).
What haunts me is Rebecca de Mornay - because Leonard's abandoned 1975 album was titled
Songs For Rebecca, so almost 20 years before they met. Who can explain this?
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:06 pm
by linda_lakeside
Hi Tom,
I had a feeling you'd be along to straighten this out.
.In fact, I was counting on it!
Only one Marianne? Hmm. OK. I can't argue with
you on any of this. But there
was a 'real' Suzanne, LC friend's wife, (immortalized in song), then the Suzanne that gave him children. Right?
The Marianne of Hydra was (can't remember the last name) something Norwegian/Swedish. Wasn't there also a Marianne Erhnl (forgive the spelling, I'm sure it's wrong but close to something I remember reading). But, it must've been in a dream, 'cause there was only
one Marianne?
Ok, it's hard to keep track of the ladies in a ladies-man's life.
Thank you, Tom. I can rest now.
Linda.
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:13 pm
by linda_lakeside
Oh, right. Rebecca. Another possible duplicate. Even the fact that Rebecca de Mornay is in the picture haunts
me. Maybe he writes the songs, then looks for a woman to fit the song? Sorry. Given the fact that he doesn't speak of his ladies, who knows? Maybe there was
another Rebecca.
I want so much for some 'kiss and tell'. I know that's far beneath any serious student of Cohen's work, but it sure is juicy!
Thank you again.
Linda.
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:52 pm
by lizzytysh
Hi Linda ~
Okay, I think I got it all straight enough to be able to step out and clarify this for you. There are two, 'primary' Suzanne's [Vega being a 'secondary' one]. Suzanne of the song is not the same Suzanne of his 'wife'/mother of his children. Leonard's never actually been married, but the mother of his children is about as close to 'wife' [and considered the same in his world] as you'll ever get. They are one and the same. Suzanne of the song is not his 'wife'/mother of his children, but was the wife of a friend of his. Therefore, in an ethical sense, she was 'off limits' to him, hence the body/mind references in the song. He was obviously very attracted to her, and she inspired his imagination, immensely.
I don't recall the last name of the Marianne from Hydra, but I believe that's the one you're referring to, here. There was only one Marianne. The link someone [Jarkko?] provided with current photos of her was, indeed, the Marianne of Hydra.
With Rebecca, it could be that he subconsciously 'summoned' the name of the young girl he met at the Catholic school[?] so many years earlier, who was, he's certain, the same Rebecca, he met upon a visit there so many years ago. If you go to Marie Mazur's site [and join!], you can read an interview he did of Rebecca [him interviewing her] ~ the love pours from the words and his phrasings of the questions. Well worth the trip.
~ Lizzy
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:12 pm
by tomsakic
Marianne Ihlen, and she was from Sweden (Stockholm I believe).
Suzanne Vaillancourt is Suzanne of the song (her husband being Armand Vaillancourt who knew Leonard), later she became Suzanne Verdal (
interview). The "wife" and mother of Adam & Lorca is Suzanne Elrod (remember
her site?)
The song was begun, and the chord pattern was developed, before a woman's name entered the song. And I knew it was a song about Montreal, it seemed to come out of that landscape that I loved very much in Montreal, which was the harbour, and the waterfront, and the sailors' church there, called Notre Dame de Bon Secour, which stood out over the river, and I knew that there're ships going by, I knew that there was a harbour, I knew that there was Our Lady of the Harbour, which was the virgin on the church which stretched out her arms towards the seamen, and you can climb up to the tower and look out over the river, so the song came from that vision, from that view of the river.
At a certain point, I bumped into Suzanne Vaillancourt, who was the wife of a friend of mine, they were a stunning couple around Montreal at the time, physically stunning, both of them, a handsome man and woman, everyone was in love with Suzanne Vaillancourt, and every woman was in love with Armand Vaillancourt. But there was no... well, there was thought, but there was no possibility, one would not allow oneself to think of toiling at the seduction of Armand Vaillancourt's wife. First of all he was a friend, and second of all as a couple they were inviolate, you just didn't intrude into that kind of shared glory that they manifested. I bumped into her one evening, and she invited me down to her place near the river. She had a loft, at a time when lofts were... the word wasn't used. She had a space in a warehouse down there, and she invited me down, and I went with her, and she served me Constant Comment tea, which has little bits of oranges in it. And the boats were going by, and I touched her perfect body with my mind, because there was no other opportunity. There was no other way that you could touch her perfect body under those circumstances. So she provided the name in the song. (BBC 1994)
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:28 pm
by Ghoti
I seriously doubt it is all a coincidance that Leonard keeps finding women of the same name(s). Surely he's going to be drawn towards a woman with a name that means so much to him. Maybe I'm hoplessly romantic but i'd imagine any conversation with any Suzanne or Marianne would stick in Leonards head and maybe be the basis of some kind of relationship. Any other Nancys or Alexandras??