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There are "schooling in poetry" and shcooling about different kinds of schooling in poetry. And as such there are those who claim their type of schooling to be the true one. Take this example: "Poetry is not about inner feelings!" This is an often seen argument, and I believe it holds some truth. However this statement also has a history of its own, for example as a protest against certain kinds of romantic writing where the writer was seen as the great genious who captured the mystic world. Against that the text could be seen a the single important thing. However against this there has been books like "is there a text..." who questioned the reality of the text beyond the readers respond. and so on.
"poetry is not about inner feelings" is a very oldfashioned statement.

I nevertheless welcome severe critique. But one should put foreward the criterias for such critique.
peter

It's kinda like opening up a watch. Sure you can tell the time just fine from the face of it....but if you open it up, simple time becomes a result of all these tiny wheels and cogs and whatevers that you didn't even know existed till peeking inside. Book learning about poetry enhances the experience of reading and writing poetry, in my opinion.

toodles,
L

Hi Peter~ I wrote the above post having just read this from you:

yes laurie, the test is about schooling in poetry. To put up such a test shows a kind of schooling, that is rather amusing to me.

I do agree with what you say about "inner feelings" poetry.

I love confessional stuff. Plath is my fave poet and extremely confessional...but she has oodles of talent beyond pouring her heart out or using her life as a starting point to her most of her poetry...i think that is the difference between the art of poetry and the Hallmark Card genre of touchy feely writing.

I think one needs to learn the rules before breaking them.

regards,
L

That's a great analogy, Laurie. I've considered taking a "Poetry Class 101" [followed by 102 and 103 ] for those very same reasons, except I didn't have that excellent analogy to illustrate it. Not everything in life comes 'naturally' for everyone.

Give me a class, any day, with the next 10 years to build upon the lessons vs. 10 years of trying to deduce it all, and the next 1 to build upon them. Okay, a bit extreme on my analogy , but I think it makes my point.

yes laurie. But the rules dont come to us like a flag from heaven. They are always determined but consensus. The more may be wrong. And they may not.

" one needs to learn the rules before breaking them" is that a rule? If I broke it then the sentence would be "one do not need to learn the rules before breaking them", but then how would I know, and if i did not know the rules would my text then be a poem or just typing?

Lizz~

There are many good books out there about poetry...you really don't need to wait for a class! Most of all, do what brings you joy...whether you book shop or not...if you had fun writing that poem, write more.

Peter~

Rules do not come from heaven...poetry has a long history. the strict formulas have now died out with free verse seeming to be the choice of the masses. There was a metamorphosis that had to take place between the olde and the current. I think it is helpful to have some understanding of where we came from in perspective to where we are now. Besides the olde formulas, there is still meter, allusion, assonance, alliteration, etc to deal with. If you don't know what this is, you may get lucky and write something that is pleasing or you may write pure crap, whether you know this stuff or not. I'd rather be an education fool.

regards,
L

Peter, I don't really know you but I remember critiquing one of your poems here in rather a harsh way and I was impressed by how maturely you responded.

I want to ask you if your apparent disapproval of the "test" at Egoless is connected to the scathing critique you received from your "she walked behind" poem that you repeated there.


I am just curious. I thought the test was an excellent idea as a starting point of where a poet may fit in the big scale of things. After he starts posting then the wider consensus of his ability emerges. I must confess I have never read that particular poem with any care yet. I mention the obvious that any further crit. may disagree completely with the one so far.


What I am interested in is your reaction to criticism. I already knew which regulars here would be scared of anonymity and scared of criticism, but you I would have guessed would be cool and probably keen to learn. So, that was the cause of my curiosity about your view on the preliminary "test"

regards

critic2

I visited the egoless site briefly but did not have time then to read through all the rules and regulations. I would like to know Critic2 if this site is your creation or if you had any part in creating it?

hi Charles,

I have no connection at all with the site beyond joining it and finding it the absolute antidote to the wow sites like allpoetry!

It is run by a chap called Colin Ward who is, I think, from England and is a poster at a poetry newsgroup that I have visited over the years.

I hope you take the time to get to know the site, Charles.

deleted.

Agreed, on both perspectives, Martine. Not fence-sitting, either. Just truly do agree ~ but, for myself, still looking for that class or, as Laurie well-suggested, that book that can bring me in touch with 101.

"I want to ask you if your apparent disapproval of the "test" at Egoless is connected to the scathing critique you received from your "she walked behind" poem that you repeated there"

scathing critique? It would have to be critique that really argued. The first critique I got was a quote "this is not writing, its typewriting". When I read that I felt that some indication of the level of critique was being displayed. This "scathing critique" cuts no deep than any other "rather vulgar"critique.

If you want to hurt my feelings you will have to go for my person. I might have a few flaws. But my texts are numb, go ahead, cut as deep as you can.

Peter

don't be silly I have no interest at all in hurting your feelings. it's really straightforward- I think the test is a useful launch and you strongly disapprove of it. I then saw your poem and the crit and I asked you a straight question. no more, no less. the wow "poets" have gone quiet and I thought it was safe here to ask you a grown-up question without provoking a response direct from the ego.

You don't seem to have noticed that my post to you contained compliments about your character ( such as I have noticed it in passing.) let's not return to the baby days of allpoetry insecurity.

"You don't seem to have noticed that my post to you contained compliments about your character ( such as I have noticed it in passing.) let's not return to the baby days of allpoetry insecurity."


well critic, if you dont mind that was the point, you compliments about my character does not matter. Your "straight question" was an attempt to get beyond the fact that any conventional attempt to define art is in fact influenced by conventions, on which I do not agree. For example you insist in claiming that any line which begins with "oh" does not qualify for poetry. How stupid is that on a scale?


" a grown-up question without provoking a response direct from the ego."

I speak. This is my ego. Do you really pretend to be beyond that. I would be afraid to let someone who claim any absolute truth( they who speak beyond the ego) take over.

Please critic, lets speak about the texts. Your own critique is so full of personal attacks that it is hard to take it serious. I suspect you have something else to offer.

Peter

I haven't done a critique of your poem.


I do recall me saying something about lines beginning with "oh". I'd be surprised if I actually commented that it automatically can't qualify as poetry. tough though it is, I prefer argument that doesn't include misrepresentation, distortion, or even slight altering of other persons' stated positions. Anyway, this seems pretty sterile to me as a discussion between us.

I will be very happy to critique, in an egoless style, any further poems you write.