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Laurie, I am afraid you really have got me wrong here. (as Kush suggested there is a problem with being understood in this mode of web forums) Yes Kush has given a well spoken explanation and I am giving much consideration to his point of view. Of that quote the operative word is "possible" viewpoint. I did not assert 'definitive' nor did I mean to imply as such. Your response here does have an angry tone and an intolerant outlook. (You're gonna hate this, ) Perhaps you should ask why are you so angry with me or my writing? I am not angry that you or Kush or anyone else should disagree- I welcome the dialogue. I really am not coming from a "holier-than-thou", "patronising" position even if it appears that way. All the critical observation I apply to humanity I also apply to myself. I am not outside of this problem I am deeply within it. I am always talking about us not them out there. And I do not accept (this critic's view) that it is within all my writings just some that you are familiar with here and that is so because it is part of the process in which I am presently immersed. Fact is- my writing over the last decade has become less and less strident in its expression but I think my core ideas on humanitie's stumbling blocks are becoming reinforced by observation. I am always open to better ways of expression and I trust I will find them. Would you like to see a copy of song lyric "Rabid War Dogs" that I wrote at the first Gulf War?
Gee, I hope you are not being so unbending as to be initiating a war! Probe me with questions and challenge my assumptions, sure. This is the purpose of forums but please do not fight me with adverse opinions for that can not lead to any understanding for either party. You are taking sides here and that is a war declaration.
If I think that a differing viewpoint is off the mark I will say so. But I am not being angered by it. Ideas are for changing and if someone offers me a sound argument as to why I should change mine then I will. And Kush has offered a sound argument! I do not rush into responses and in time his explanation here may change my outlook or it may not. I am certainly giving it the consideration it deserves. Kush made his feelings clear but he did not attack me with anger. In fact he demonstrated some of the detached position that he subscribes to. I feel no intolerance towards anyone at these forums who is prepared to discuss issues. The one or two nasty nutters who emerge from time to time I simply ignore these days as reacting only eggs them on. It does not take long to determine who is genuinely interested in discussion and those who are just trying to 'wind you up' for their own purposes of shallow entertainment. Thankfully they have been absent for a while.
Peace and Kind regards, Witty Owl.

Witty

You said in response to Kush:

I not sure I get what you mean by "space --- for a reader"?

I have pretty much the same reaction to your "strident" poems.

In a sense they are too airtight. There isn't any oxygen for either the poem or the reader. The reader can't breathe. So it's understandable to me if some readers think you come off as either very angry or very sanctimonious.


M

Ciao Owl,


I love shallow entertainment! More of it please. Write another poem. Your views of mankind. Magnificent!


Vesuvius

W.O.- I am left with a hopeless feeling, not to say that I do not agree with your views expressed. You are like an automatic weapon firing round after round of negativity, and well placed shots too... I feel like I need redemption from somewhere and it is not to be found in that last piece.
Right on, friend...:>

Phooaarrrrrrr. This really has opened a pandora's box. Re-reading the posts I see that there is a great variety of response here but most of it is negative, angry, sad or dismissive. Just at the moment I am partly lost for words but I shall attempt some response.
Moonlight, you have put me closer to understanding the viewpoint of Kush. I am thinking that if there is no room for the poem or the reader to breathe then maybe that is so because the actions/events I refer to in the poem leave me with exactly that kind of feeling. I have been the vehicle to express that which is preferably left alone. Much of my "strident" writing happens quickly and when it is complete I am left feeling like the unconscious (personal or collective) has acted within me to relate this. Poems such as "Flights of Fancy" and "Walking in Places Untended" have emerged more slowly and has been more of a process of really trying to reveal the essence of me. Not contrived so much as more carefully considered. So; if I am the vehicle then who or what is insisting that these (strident) poems/lyrics be written? While I am not deliberately trying to alienate a possible audience I am also disinclined to "pull my punches".
Reactions and responses tell me that in even though many are distressed by the content; somehow I must be doing something right.

Maybe after the initial reaction of anger, sadness, hopelessness, distress or even flippant dismissal, something happens in the mind or heart of the reader that leads to a different perception? I am only speculating here and this idea has just occured at this moment.

Ep you said, "right on friend----:>" Are you refering to me or to someone else's post?? I trust that you will find that redemption within you own good self. There must be an element of hopelessness in the writing I relate but I do think that if you can clearly identify a devil then you are in a position to vanquish it.
Vesuvius, your ambiguous or askew compliments appear to be somewhat treacherous. A prize of encouragement offered while the other hand is stabbing the back. Et tu brute? From things I have said in other posts you seem to think the ultimate insult is to praise a serious issue as shallow entertainment. Have I mis-read your post?

Regards, Witty Owl.

For sure there's a war between those who say humanity is damned and those who don't . No prizes for guessing which side I'm on. WO - I'll be back with more ammunition later....in the meantime - stay hard, stay hungry and stay alive !! (B. Springsteen said that)

Kush, I take no sides. If humanity is damned then it is because humanity damns itself. I say humanity has more hope than damnation. I say humanity damned well better get its act together! I say individuals could cease giving over responsibility to kings, priests, politicians, CEOs, bosses, directors, pettry tyrants and the almighty DOLLAR

Have a heart, Witty Owl.

Damn the wars!

So; if I am the vehicle then who or what is insisting that these (strident) poems/lyrics be written?

Maybe after the initial reaction of anger, sadness, hopelessness, distress or even flippant dismissal, something happens in the mind or heart of the reader that leads to a different perception? I am only speculating here and this idea has just occured at this moment.

This has gone from a being about a cynical pose towards mankind to delusional.

I will exit the bus now.

Laurie

I say individuals could cease giving over responsibility to kings, priests, politicians, CEOs, bosses, directors, pettry tyrants and the almighty DOLLAR

yeah...and we know what happened in the USSR.

"In Russia they got it mapped out so that everybody pulls for everybody else. But what I know is Texas and here you're on your own..."

- somebody said that I can't remember who but I found it on the inside cover of a Jerry Jeff Walker album, a singer from Austin the guy who wrote Mr. Bojangles.

W.O.- I was certainly saying "right on" to you. I too am angry and also saddened by the "state" of things. Recognized negativity is a positive towards change. "The first step is admitting that you have a problem." :>
Vesuvius, I ask you, was "shallow" a poor word choice or a passive aggressive dig? Thoughts to words, words to paper; this is NEVER a "shallow" chain of events.

I do agree that the room that you have built W.O. does not have ample air to breath, but it offers a desperate feeling that I believe was intended.

Ciao Kush!

In Russia they got it mapped out so that everybody pulls for everybody else. But what I know is Texas and here you're on your own..."

I remember these words! It is from the film "Blood Simple" by the Cohen Brothers. A great American film.


Vesuvius

Ciao Epercelly,


I am not sure what the words passive-agressive means. Is this something you do in New Jersey?


Vesuvius

Hi Witty ~

Here's the blurb from E-Verse Radio ~ just another perspective, of sorts, on the general topic of this thread. It was from yesterday's [03/23/04] 'issue' ~ synchronicity. I have no idea who Jim Versluys is, except that this is what he thinks/feels:

People seem fond of saying humanity is evolving. This quaint notion is used in a vague and inexact historical sense to mean that humanity is going somewhere, which is true enough. We are technologically advancing, which is changing our culture in ways we simply perceive and almost never predict. This is taken to mean that humans themselves are somehow different now, that we have some kind of centrally malleable nature. Absurd. I doubt humanity is now substantially different than any time in the last ten thousand years. I doubt any group of people in the United States at the outset of the 21st century is any happier than any similarly sized group of dirt poor peasants in medieval Europe, although we do seem a modicum less civilized, to judge by history. The average man, which is to say the inferior man, is no different than his medieval peasant analogue in any way except a few trite skills that allow him to function in a technological society. The medieval peasant tended also to have fewer superstitions and foolish fears of the dark than modern man. To be fair, this isn't modern man's fault. It is the fault of those who would control him, and so need to pump him full of vague fears and shooting pains, sending the modern peasant scrambling to be led to safety from an endless array of phantasms and ghouls, all wholly imaginary.

~ Jim Versluys

The "Invaluable Fact of the Day" in this issue is what really synchronicitied me into knowing I had to share Jim's commentary. That fact was "A group of owls is called a parliament."

Now I can sleep ,
Lizzy

Ciao Owl!

Yes, you have misread! Read the posts I have written since becoming a member! Everywhere is the respect for the poets. I am not a poet but I encourage the poets. This is my respect.

Vesuvius

Vesuvius- I'm not sure what to make of the post that you directed at me. It doesn't sound very friendly but these are odd times...