I'm sorry Butchie10 for this second mistake. This remind me of a Japanese movie. The artist was searching for the woman with the perfect skin to perform the most wonderful tattoo on her back. But, I (as a girl) would have choose to have his picture tattooed. On my chest. Just a joke.
The woman on the picture looks like Rebecca De Mornay.
Have to know... right?
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Hi Coco ~ Just so you know, and I'm sure you do, but just in case ~ I agree with Tchocolatl that you are, if any, a duckling of the "Gabrielle Chanel Chick" variety, not the "ugly duckling" variety 
. My reference to that was strictly Leonard's concern with "ugliness."
Moonlight/Coco ~ My take on Leonard's reading of this Forum is that he is so busy with so many things ~ writing and compiling poetry; writing and compiling words and music for his next album; his son, Adam; his daughter, Lorca; Lorca's two dogs [as I recall, there are two, though only one's photo was taken and placed here]; his own reading and research; any women in his life; and his trips to India; and whatever other daily things he concerns himself with [breakfast, lunch, dinner, reading the paper, a telephone conversation here and there] ~ that I can't imagine his taking more time for reading here. Not only that, but it's not only here that's devoted to him. Sony has a site, Marie has a site, and there are French, Italian, Polish, Belgium, Dutch, and whatever other sites on him, as well. I know that at least with the French site, there is a message board for the English language included. There are also the Newsgroup and the chatroom.
My understanding is that while he was on Mt. Baldy, he took some time communicating in the newsgroup, but life for him was considerably simpler during that time. I also understand that he did not continue communicating there after a point. If this site were new, I could see his interest being at a level to where he might spend some time reading, but this site has been going for over five years. So, if Leonard comes here and reads, I'll be surprized
.
~ Elizabeth
. My reference to that was strictly Leonard's concern with "ugliness."Moonlight/Coco ~ My take on Leonard's reading of this Forum is that he is so busy with so many things ~ writing and compiling poetry; writing and compiling words and music for his next album; his son, Adam; his daughter, Lorca; Lorca's two dogs [as I recall, there are two, though only one's photo was taken and placed here]; his own reading and research; any women in his life; and his trips to India; and whatever other daily things he concerns himself with [breakfast, lunch, dinner, reading the paper, a telephone conversation here and there] ~ that I can't imagine his taking more time for reading here. Not only that, but it's not only here that's devoted to him. Sony has a site, Marie has a site, and there are French, Italian, Polish, Belgium, Dutch, and whatever other sites on him, as well. I know that at least with the French site, there is a message board for the English language included. There are also the Newsgroup and the chatroom.
My understanding is that while he was on Mt. Baldy, he took some time communicating in the newsgroup, but life for him was considerably simpler during that time. I also understand that he did not continue communicating there after a point. If this site were new, I could see his interest being at a level to where he might spend some time reading, but this site has been going for over five years. So, if Leonard comes here and reads, I'll be surprized
.~ Elizabeth
Hi Demetris ~
I also was very intrigued by the section you selected for comment. It provided a very graphic image for me. When I read it, I felt like I was walking into any number of rooms I actually walked into during that time period. At least in the U.S. during the Sixties, with various drugs and the ambience in general, came a high degree of focus on the senses. Sensations were enhanced in many ways ~ often in as many ways, at one time, as possible. Sensuousness, sensuality, and sexuality were primary, along with the spiritual, philosophical and intellectual endeavours, of course. These worlds often tended to merge. Where marijuana and hashish were smoked; where acid, mushrooms, wine, and whatever other mind-/mood-altering substances were taken, seeing items in the list provided by Leonard was not uncommon. It was a time of experiential seeking, and the most avid seekers tended to indulge in many ways.
Rooms were often rich to the touch, smell, sight, and sound. Oriental rugs; cloths from India; incense, candles, oils, scents of patchouli, sandalwood, jasmine, nag champa, and marijuana; vibrant, coloured beads; crystals, crystal balls and Buddhas; silk, satin, and fur; vibrant paint in pictures/posters/directly on the walls; peacock feathers; the green of plants, etc. Colourful, textured clothing was worn and even draped about as in a display. Music was equally rich and sensuous. Ravi Shankar, Jefferson Airplane, the Beatles, ad infinitum. The Rubaiyat with its rich, red Persian design might easily be seen on the floor next to a bed [a mattress also on the floor]. Meditation amidst all of this.
With the "free love" banner of the Sixties, I saw a number of women exploited, used up, and discarded ~ left confused and feeling betrayed......"Nancy wore green stockings / and she slept with everyone." It wasn't all about exploitation, of course. Romanticism and mysteriousness also played high parts.
This is not to suggest that Leonard's room would contain all of the above elements. Rooms came with various combinations of these and more. With Leonard's Zen nature, he likely kept to the basics. With Leonard's focus on sensuality, sexuality, and the male-female conflicts in his songs, however; I see love potions during that period as being just about as perfectly natural as anything else I might expect to be in his room. In fact, I was pleased to see the list he provided. It met with what I presumed his own "essence" during that time to be, and what I would have expected his room to look like, after listening to his songs of that period.
I don't know if I've answered your question, Demetris. If I keep answering you here, I'm going to find myself on a quest for something I haven't done in years 
~ this all takes me back in the most pleasant of ways.
~ Elizabeth
I also was very intrigued by the section you selected for comment. It provided a very graphic image for me. When I read it, I felt like I was walking into any number of rooms I actually walked into during that time period. At least in the U.S. during the Sixties, with various drugs and the ambience in general, came a high degree of focus on the senses. Sensations were enhanced in many ways ~ often in as many ways, at one time, as possible. Sensuousness, sensuality, and sexuality were primary, along with the spiritual, philosophical and intellectual endeavours, of course. These worlds often tended to merge. Where marijuana and hashish were smoked; where acid, mushrooms, wine, and whatever other mind-/mood-altering substances were taken, seeing items in the list provided by Leonard was not uncommon. It was a time of experiential seeking, and the most avid seekers tended to indulge in many ways.
Rooms were often rich to the touch, smell, sight, and sound. Oriental rugs; cloths from India; incense, candles, oils, scents of patchouli, sandalwood, jasmine, nag champa, and marijuana; vibrant, coloured beads; crystals, crystal balls and Buddhas; silk, satin, and fur; vibrant paint in pictures/posters/directly on the walls; peacock feathers; the green of plants, etc. Colourful, textured clothing was worn and even draped about as in a display. Music was equally rich and sensuous. Ravi Shankar, Jefferson Airplane, the Beatles, ad infinitum. The Rubaiyat with its rich, red Persian design might easily be seen on the floor next to a bed [a mattress also on the floor]. Meditation amidst all of this.
With the "free love" banner of the Sixties, I saw a number of women exploited, used up, and discarded ~ left confused and feeling betrayed......"Nancy wore green stockings / and she slept with everyone." It wasn't all about exploitation, of course. Romanticism and mysteriousness also played high parts.
This is not to suggest that Leonard's room would contain all of the above elements. Rooms came with various combinations of these and more. With Leonard's Zen nature, he likely kept to the basics. With Leonard's focus on sensuality, sexuality, and the male-female conflicts in his songs, however; I see love potions during that period as being just about as perfectly natural as anything else I might expect to be in his room. In fact, I was pleased to see the list he provided. It met with what I presumed his own "essence" during that time to be, and what I would have expected his room to look like, after listening to his songs of that period.
I don't know if I've answered your question, Demetris. If I keep answering you here, I'm going to find myself on a quest for something I haven't done in years
~ this all takes me back in the most pleasant of ways. ~ Elizabeth
Last edited by lizzytysh on Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Pp and Tchocolatl ~
Thanks for that additional information regarding Catholicism. I can see what you mean, Tchocolatl. I don't know that much about Catholicism and halted my own conversion process when I asked a perfectly reasonable question and was answered [authoritatively] with, "This is not to be questioned. You just have to accept it as a 'mystery.' " I was too interested in real answers to accept that as one, and decided that all the pomp and circumstance that so fascinated me with Catholicism [including, at that time, the Masses being in Latin only] were not going to be enough to sustain me in following that path.
And, Pp, I find it very interesting that Anima Sola is not considered a "real saint," if I'm correctly reading what you wrote.
I'm so glad that you brought your question here, Butchie! I'd never have dreamed your reason for wanting this info, and please do show us a photo! You'll have all kinds of things to tell people who inquire regarding your tattoo.
~ Elizabeth
Thanks for that additional information regarding Catholicism. I can see what you mean, Tchocolatl. I don't know that much about Catholicism and halted my own conversion process when I asked a perfectly reasonable question and was answered [authoritatively] with, "This is not to be questioned. You just have to accept it as a 'mystery.' " I was too interested in real answers to accept that as one, and decided that all the pomp and circumstance that so fascinated me with Catholicism [including, at that time, the Masses being in Latin only] were not going to be enough to sustain me in following that path.
And, Pp, I find it very interesting that Anima Sola is not considered a "real saint," if I'm correctly reading what you wrote.
I'm so glad that you brought your question here, Butchie! I'd never have dreamed your reason for wanting this info, and please do show us a photo! You'll have all kinds of things to tell people who inquire regarding your tattoo.
~ Elizabeth
Lizzytysh, I found your reply to Dem interesting reading, I being in my early twenties during the sixties and growing up in the midwest, only read of this life style, with many different opinions on it I guess, I was always under the impression this was more of the "New York" thing, New York was where everything was happening. Off course the east coast was always first to get or do anything, next the west coast and then we in the midwest caught on.
What you said about women was very true, therefore the suicide rate was high for women. Were the sixties fond memories for you? It sounds as if they were. Were you a true "hippie"? Some how I think you would be, and I am not saying that in a negative way.
What you said about women was very true, therefore the suicide rate was high for women. Were the sixties fond memories for you? It sounds as if they were. Were you a true "hippie"? Some how I think you would be, and I am not saying that in a negative way.
Linda
Hi Linda ~
These environments were not restricted to New York. I found the "Sixties" rooms and lifestyle to occur in pockets, in the areas where I lived during that time. Ann Arbor and Detroit were primary in Michigan, some in Lansing/E. Lansing, and Flint, and minimally so in northern Michigan; Atlanta had a lot going on; New York [of course, as always ~ and as you say, things hit there first, and then California, and then back to us, always somehow "left wanting " in the Midwest. There were the blissful, Zen-style "hippie" environments, one of which I have in mind from the film "Chelsea Walls" ~ which I've yet to describe here somewhere, and enjoyed very much.
I was a "hippie"/"pseudo-hippie" in that I never joined a demonstration, in that they never seemed to make a distinction between the soldiers fighting the war, and the government perpetrating it [and I was never against the soldier him/herself] and I could not disdain them upon their return home. I got high, hung out, quit college, etc. but was conservative in my drug usage [trying never to combine them, or do more than one "hit" of anything in particular], trying not to become a mental-health statistic ~ though I know some would swear I did regardless
. However, I dressed in what I considered to be "classy" hippie fashion, my primary outfit being a long, heavy-materialed, Eastern Indian dress; small, black star drawn over my third eye; barefoot with or without a toe ring, or dark-brown-leather-sandaled, with to-the-knees, Roman-style leather lacing; patchouli oiled; long, colourful or sterling silver earrings; brass bracelets above my elbow; a "statement" piece brooch; hair down. Tried not to look "cluttered" and tried to be thematically consistent in my dress. It was a fun time to get up in the morning and just really express yourself with how you dressed. I liked lace over things as well, will long, colourful earrings.
I wasn't aware of the suicide rate, though I'm not surprized. I saw and heard about many "grief"/depression-stricken women, who gave their all so willingly, and found themselves immediately discarded, thrown out of the van, whatever. I hung out with several women who felt their free attitude toward sex was the way to a man's heart, and watched their disillusionment repeat itself over and over. For me, it was indeed a glorious time [for the most part, continuous smoking seemed to drag me down after a bit, so I curtailed that] ~ perhaps "saved" by my conservative upbringing on the aforementioned, as well as the fact that I still loved my former boyfriend [that loyalty-without-cause phenomena ], still later to become my husband.
I still get wistful when I walk in somewhere and smell Nag Champa/patchouli/sandalwood, the almost "signature scents" for the era for me. Yes, I enjoyed the time very much. Hippie? Hmmm.....most would say so, some might not, depending on where they draw their lines.
~ Lizzytysh
These environments were not restricted to New York. I found the "Sixties" rooms and lifestyle to occur in pockets, in the areas where I lived during that time. Ann Arbor and Detroit were primary in Michigan, some in Lansing/E. Lansing, and Flint, and minimally so in northern Michigan; Atlanta had a lot going on; New York [of course, as always ~ and as you say, things hit there first, and then California, and then back to us, always somehow "left wanting
" in the Midwest. There were the blissful, Zen-style "hippie" environments, one of which I have in mind from the film "Chelsea Walls" ~ which I've yet to describe here somewhere, and enjoyed very much. I was a "hippie"/"pseudo-hippie" in that I never joined a demonstration, in that they never seemed to make a distinction between the soldiers fighting the war, and the government perpetrating it [and I was never against the soldier him/herself] and I could not disdain them upon their return home. I got high, hung out, quit college, etc. but was conservative in my drug usage [trying never to combine them, or do more than one "hit" of anything in particular], trying not to become a mental-health statistic ~ though I know some would swear I did regardless
. However, I dressed in what I considered to be "classy" hippie fashion, my primary outfit being a long, heavy-materialed, Eastern Indian dress; small, black star drawn over my third eye; barefoot with or without a toe ring, or dark-brown-leather-sandaled, with to-the-knees, Roman-style leather lacing; patchouli oiled; long, colourful or sterling silver earrings; brass bracelets above my elbow; a "statement" piece brooch; hair down. Tried not to look "cluttered" and tried to be thematically consistent in my dress. It was a fun time to get up in the morning and just really express yourself with how you dressed. I liked lace over things as well, will long, colourful earrings.I wasn't aware of the suicide rate, though I'm not surprized. I saw and heard about many "grief"/depression-stricken women, who gave their all so willingly, and found themselves immediately discarded, thrown out of the van, whatever. I hung out with several women who felt their free attitude toward sex was the way to a man's heart, and watched their disillusionment repeat itself over and over. For me, it was indeed a glorious time [for the most part, continuous smoking seemed to drag me down after a bit, so I curtailed that] ~ perhaps "saved" by my conservative upbringing on the aforementioned, as well as the fact that I still loved my former boyfriend [that loyalty-without-cause phenomena
], still later to become my husband.I still get wistful when I walk in somewhere and smell Nag Champa/patchouli/sandalwood, the almost "signature scents" for the era for me. Yes, I enjoyed the time very much. Hippie? Hmmm.....most would say so, some might not, depending on where they draw their lines.
~ Lizzytysh
Aaaah Lizzy - what memories you bring back 
Do you remember the raffia bits tied to the big toe and round the ankle so you could go barefoot and still look relatively well dressed? Or was that a South African invention? Shouldn't think so - we were always at the tail end of things 
Jo
Do you remember the raffia bits tied to the big toe and round the ankle so you could go barefoot and still look relatively well dressed?
Or was that a South African invention? Shouldn't think so - we were always at the tail end of things Jo
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Yes, Jo, I do remember the raffia bits, though I don't recall whether they were called that here, or what they were called if they weren't. I never seemed to think I could afford them. I do remember that 
. I loved them then, and I love them now. It's not out of the realm that I'll still end up getting some. They're so beautiful. I remember them in the India-style silver. The ones I'm thinking of linked between the big toe and the ankle, as well. I had all I could do to have my "sandals" custom made. I probably thought they would be more versatile. No idea what ever happened to them, but perhaps my one lifelong, clothing regret will be having yard-saled my India[n] dress.Paula ~ It could be on the patchouli. They are rather similar, in their way, with their heavy, heady, "sweet" smell. At times, I cared not which I smelled. Now, my preference is patchouli
. I'm not sure which were bigger, the flares in my jeans, or the rips.I appreciate both of your input. I knew there were others, and that there still are, who could add more [in fact, much more] than I have described.
Linda ~ Looking back, it sometimes feels like a movie, too. However, it's one I'm very glad to have been in
.~ Lizzytysh
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Seems so long ago, Nancy
Lizzy, it seems they did a good job anyway, the Catholics of you childhood. I can not believe this mystery, the connection made between a girl not having sex only in the marriage, and her suicide.
I would have put drugs and alcohol right on the top of the list of the suspects instead, for doing such a foolish thing like suicide and sleep with the wrong guy, the wrong way before.
For the rest, you girls, remind me of my grand-mother when she was talking about her youth with her friends and her sister.
I have sometimes wonder about the baby-boomer generation in an institution for elderly citizen. I imagined them still smoking blue grass and improvising dances in their whirlchairs, dressed in Indian clothes, long white hair flotting in the air. And the personnel of the institution completely unable to keep them under control.
Ah! Shining Artefacts of the Past! The new generation have to get their skin tattooed all over to be as colourful as you where! (and still are) You really changed the world. I Love you! Peace!
I would have put drugs and alcohol right on the top of the list of the suspects instead, for doing such a foolish thing like suicide and sleep with the wrong guy, the wrong way before.
For the rest, you girls, remind me of my grand-mother when she was talking about her youth with her friends and her sister.
I have sometimes wonder about the baby-boomer generation in an institution for elderly citizen. I imagined them still smoking blue grass and improvising dances in their whirlchairs, dressed in Indian clothes, long white hair flotting in the air. And the personnel of the institution completely unable to keep them under control.
Ah! Shining Artefacts of the Past! The new generation have to get their skin tattooed all over to be as colourful as you where! (and still are) You really changed the world. I Love you! Peace!
Last edited by Tchocolatl on Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Hi Tchocolatl ~
I'm not sure of the Catholic connection. However, the suicide connection wouldn't be the issue of sex outside of marriage, but that of self-esteem annihilated, feelings of depression, worthlessness, and invisibility from being used ~ particularly for those coming out of the fifties, where virginity was, indeed, highly valued. The drugs and alcohol would certainly contribute to the feelings of vulnerability and compromised decision-making, both before and after the encounters.
On the blue grass [just for clarification], that would be something you dance to, rather than smoke. If you just drop the colour, you'll have it! I love the rest of the paragraph related to our aging. What a sight ! Unfortunately, it's only a particular sect of the baby boomers who can be included there, however. Not everyone took to the ways we've described here. Some will still prefer only knitting. Not to say that knitting is bad, of course. However, while some will be getting their yarn tangled upon the floor, we'll be getting our hair and dresses caught up in the wheels. Great image !!! "Growing Old Disgracefully" 
~ Lizzytysh
I'm not sure of the Catholic connection. However, the suicide connection wouldn't be the issue of sex outside of marriage, but that of self-esteem annihilated, feelings of depression, worthlessness, and invisibility from being used ~ particularly for those coming out of the fifties, where virginity was, indeed, highly valued. The drugs and alcohol would certainly contribute to the feelings of vulnerability and compromised decision-making, both before and after the encounters.
On the blue grass [just for clarification], that would be something you dance to, rather than smoke. If you just drop the colour, you'll have it! I love the rest of the paragraph related to our aging. What a sight
! Unfortunately, it's only a particular sect of the baby boomers who can be included there, however. Not everyone took to the ways we've described here. Some will still prefer only knitting. Not to say that knitting is bad, of course. However, while some will be getting their yarn tangled upon the floor, we'll be getting our hair and dresses caught up in the wheels. Great image !!! "Growing Old Disgracefully" ~ Lizzytysh
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Lizzy, I feel much more comfortable with the self-esteem theory.
(Oh! A scarf caught up in a wheel, this is exactly how Isadora Duncan finished her life.)
(Oh! A scarf caught up in a wheel, this is exactly how Isadora Duncan finished her life.)
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Ah yes, and I love Isadora, Tchocolatl! The car for her, the wheelchair for us. May we stop short of demise, of course. I've always said that those around me can count on hearing Leonard's songs coming from my room. [As for the theory, I hadn't meant for it to seem it was the sex-outside-of-marriage aspect. That would have made for a much higher rate .]
.]