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margaret · Post by **margaret** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:06 pm

Paula,

were you thinking of the English woman writer who wrote under the name of George Elliot? In her day no one would have considered her books worth reading if published under her own name Marian Evans. Another woman today is A S Byatt who I think writes murder mysteries. The famous Harry Potter auther J K Rowling is actually Joanne. Women writers even today are often associated with trivial romantic slush like the Mills and Boon stuff, making it more difficult for the better ones to be taken seriously.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:14 pm

Interesting discussion
We innerly are one or the other and that is what counts
"the dress does not make the monk"( I tried to translate that proverb I think you have heard)and that happens with appearences ..sometimes do not show what we really are ...for cultural things and so on
there are too many shadows in this but the honest true is the one we feel when we are strongly attracted by the opposite sex that is different and I do like and prefer that difference...
we women feel totally touched when for example LC sings .."I´m your man..."

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:53 pm

Women having to do, what they want to do most, under the guise of a man, is not restricted to writing. Joan of Arc one and there are many others. Several mornings ago, I heard a radio piece on a female jockey, who disguised herself as a man, as she'd have been discounted immediately, in terms of worth and admittance, as a woman.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:42 am

Margaret - It was George Elliott I am glad you posted that I would have had a sleepness night trying to remember.

Coco · Post by **Coco** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:17 am

And back to nicknames. Has anyone gone through the memberlist and wondered about why some chose the names they did? I have. Names like skinklizard and smartfilter. Do you think these members are men? How about liverpoolken? I just do not see a woman choosing this type of name.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:23 am

Coco I think liverpoolken might be Ken from Liverpool

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:03 am

Peter, I think what I was trying to say in a hurry this morning is that for a long time there was no significant literary output by women, for social and educational reasons, so that it was a given that most poetry, emotional or otherwise, was written by men. I doubt very much whether it would be possible to assemble sufficient data regarding current output to substantiate or refute your claim. I was certainly not suggesting that men do not have an emotional vocabulary, though I think it may differ slightly from that used by most women.

I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else by the tone of my posting this morning. I should have taken more time to think it through.

Jo · Post by Jo » Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:24 am

I wonder how many Mrs Rembrandts and Mrs Thackerays suppressed their own talent in order to cook and clean and launder so that their great men could immerse themselves in their work?

If there's a woman behind every man, who's behind every woman (apart from the usual kids snapping at her ankles)?
Jo

jurica · Post by **jurica** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:03 pm

i don't want to go into human rights, and women rights. i don't know about south africa, but in most european countries women have more rights than man.
i have nothing against that.

but, jesus! toni morrison is a great woman writter. since you're from south africa, i'll add nadine gordimer as well. so who's stopping you? write and be famous.

women and man are different. psycho and physiologicaly. admit it and accept it.

it's like left handed man: most great mathematicians were left handed. so i should now go around and acuse left handed man that they are suppressing me from becoming great mathematician that i should be? please!

and man are not less emotional than women. i could now say: our replies are less emotional and more logical because we are smarter, but it's not true. it's because we are raised differently. you play with dolls, we play with little soldiers.

you are not going to be equal as long as you ask for equality, and reminding us of this difference.

we have 'women studies' here in croatia. some sort of a college for teaching women how to prove they are better than man. no man is alowed to take these courses. the way i see it it is women who are sexists, and that was well proven here by women who are claiming to be 'more emotional' or suppressed by who-knows-who.

final thought:

so there are far more famous man writters? how many male models do you know?

Partisan · Post by **Partisan** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:30 pm

It has been proved that left handed people have higher IQ's than right handed people.

p.
(who is far too modest to mention he is left handed)

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:58 pm

Left handed people are more likely to be dyslexic.

Partisan · Post by **Partisan** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:02 pm

dan aveh speehc enpidemts.

d.

Jo · Post by Jo » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm

Jurica
I have no desire or inclination to waste my time getting into arguments with just another person who's pissed off about something or other and comes here to the forum, misreads what's said and takes his/her anger and frustration out on the first person who crosses his/her path.

So I will do what my previous post did - make an observation, viz. that either I didn't express myself very clearly and/or your command of the English language is infinitely more subtle than mine is, which enables you to read into what I said that I have a desire to write and that I haven't already done so.

You really do seem to have an excellent understanding of nuances if you could read all those criticisms of the current gender situation into my simple observation - mind you, I am merely an uneducated backwoods South African who, in keeping with the rest of the country, has no idea of the current world situation so I should in future watch very carefully what I say as my thoughts and feelings and opinions are so terribly easily interpreted - perhaps I should give up on the English language and go back to expressing myself in my native Afrikaans and leave the mastery of the English language to you.

And hey - here's a thought - I was under the impression (obviously mistakenly, for which I thank you sincerely for pointing out) that men and women are the same species... but you've cleared up an interesting point for me - I always did wonder why men have those dangly bits that women don't have.

Be as mean as you like in your response - I have no intention of coming back to check... but then - we women are allowed to change our minds - now isn't that an advantage that proves our superiority?
Jo

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:28 am

To a certain extent I do agree with Jurica. I think women are coming on so strong about their rights it is making men feel carstrated. I only know about British law and I think the law does lean towards women in certain matters. For instance if a woman alleges rape and it goes to court the woman's indentity is protected and the mans isn't. Also unmarried fathers often struggle to get rights over their children as priority is given to the mother.

Jo I know we have had a couple of disagreements in the past but I do not think Jurica was actually trying to antagonise you I think he was just trying to make a point.

Women have problems in so far as equal wages and promotion prospects. But I do agree with Jurica men and women are different they are meant to be different otherwise the human race would die. Altho I do disagree that the difference is to do with the boys play with boys toys and girls play with girls toys. I think the difference is purely genetic.

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:16 am

You're right, Paula, the differences are biologically necessary, and should be celebrated, not suppressed.

The problems are caused by men's desire to control women, and unfortunately this has a valid genetic basis too, in a man's perfectly reasonable desire to be sure that the children he is helping to provide for are actually his. Over time many social and / or religious systems have been developed to help ensure this, and not a few have gone rather further than was strictly necessary to achieve the original aim.

You are probably right that women in the western world have gone a bit overboard and are currently benefiting from positive discrimination, but that's just a temporary swing towards an opposite extreme from what was the norm, and will soon right itself. After all, the concept of female equality is very new here. I don't know about you, but when I was in primary school, girls did needlework while the boys played football. When a few girls said they were not keen on needlework and would much rather play football, they were told that football was for boys and needlework for girls, and that was that. My father, who is only a few years older than Leonard, still looks on in bewilderment at a world where a man may find himself working for a woman boss.

Oh, and just to add fuel to the left / right handed debate while I'm at it, I saw this on a t-shirt the other day. "As the right hemisphere of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right minds!"