Love Itself

Andrew McGeever · Post by **Andrew McGeever** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:02 pm

I'm new to this string of messages re "Love Itself".
Let me say that much of the correspondence has been both sensitive and thoughtful. Yes, the "Nameless and the Name" have obvious references to Leonard's religion, and several others too.
Can I make two points, which I hope can add to this discussion?
Firstly, there is a practical explanation for the thread of "dust" and "flecks". When the sun shines through your window it highlights the bits you thought you'd wiped, cleaned off with furniture spray. Clean your bedroom, open the window, and if the sun shafts through you will see specks in the light, bits of yourself:most "dust" in any household is caused by humans; be it flakes of skin, hair, anything which carries D.N.A.
"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust" is a stock phrase quoted at Christian burials: a summation of a life that's been, with the prospect of eternity to come.
Second point; again practical (or is it my warped imagination?). "Love Itself" refers to physics, big-bang theories of the source of life/the universe. I'll speak no more on that one, for now.
Best wishes to all correspondents on this theme,
Andrew McGeever.
P.S. Leonard uses the word "little", four times in the song. This is a word not normally used in poetry,(as is the word "nice"). However, "little room" is used to effect. This is yet another reference to Robert Frost . ("A Thousand Kisses Deep" is soaked with them).

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:16 pm

Hi Andrew,
I also saw the dust as not being on the window, but rather the dust that you actually see in the rays of sunshine as they filter in your window [open or closed], when the lighting is just right. It's relaxing and rather mesmerizing, as it somehow slows time, when you see the dust in that fashion. I guess some of my interpretations of the song have been more literal.
~Lizzytysh

Linda · Post by **Linda** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:46 am

Thank you all who are replying. I have sat in a room when the sun is just in the right position and the rays actually look as if they are plunging into the room. You see the dust you seldom see. Unfortunately I went and got the vacumn cleaner and dust rag.
I have always felt that in the second verse he was referring to the dust from which we were created, and from what Sohbet and Irene have said, that verse makes sense to me now that way. The fourth verse "All busy in the sunlight the flecks did float and dance, and I was tumbled up with them in formless circumstance" makes me wonder if he isn't referring to death. Back to dust again. Dust to dust. I am still out on the "love itself" being gone. Andrew??

Irene Teresa · Post by **Irene Teresa** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 3:38 am

IMHO I think the dust in the ray of sun idea is used as a reference as a way to point to the dust you seldom see ( which to me is a spiritual vision expereince where the dust becomes all the universes and /or the dust as in the pre-creation, referring to the idea that all things are made of dust ( catholic ash wednedady ; 'remember man that you are dust'...) And the Nameless ( GOD ) creating all from this....

I like the last lines 'love itself was gone' - and explained so well, dont you think by LC himself on those little clips somewhere on the sony site. I got exactly the same thing but when I heard him say it I was happy that I did sorta get it

This was my idea; When we go past the limitations of what we know as love,to unconditional love, and then into the reality that All is love, then even to a place so high that love itself is gone within the Onenss , the awe and majesty of spirit....love is no longer a separate entity/identity....

Love Irene

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:10 am

Dear Irene,
You've explained this very beautifully. Thank you.
Love, Lizzytysh

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:41 pm

'there was nothing left between the namelss and the name' - i also see parallels between the hindu notion of absolute/ unknowable reality, brahman (the nameless), and atman (the name) i.e. the self which ultimately is at one with the divine brahman.

just an idea, but probably not leonards as he is more inclined towards buddhism.... philo

Sybariticism · Post by **Sybariticism** » Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:22 am

Out of a corner....

"The wretched and the meek" -- That combo seems to say it all. Gather up and go DEEP. Who is out there doing so? Those despairing from two extremes--one too much of this world and the other too little.

----------------------------------

From Miami to Nashville
http://www.joecroker.com/reviews/wordofmouth.mp3

johnny7moons · Post by **johnny7moons** » Mon May 26, 2003 1:08 am

Just to add my two-penn'eth: this line always seemed to me to be about cohen reconciling judaism with buddhism - as 'the nameless' is one of the synonyms for the buddhist 'ultimate' (aka 'nirvana', 'the unborn', 'sunyata' etc.), and in judaism (as i understand) 'the name' is the way of talking about the ultimate. thus 'the namelessand the name' - 'nirvana and god'

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Mon May 26, 2003 3:57 am

Welcome to the Forum, johnny7moons . That sounds like a very credible explanation, in fact.

~ Elizabeth

Taigaku · Post by **Taigaku** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:33 am

Hi everyone.

I've read the replies so far and i think you all have very sensible things to say about this song.

I would still like to add my own thoughts, though:
I read Love Itself not as an expression of just one among many spiritual experiences. I think it goes beyond that.

To my Zen Buddhist ears, this song is essentially the same as numerous other accounts of true spiritual awakening ...
In Japanese, this "experience" is called satori. The word consists of two ideograms, the first one meaning "boundaries", the other "to take away".
So satori - true spiritual awakening - is in effect the removal of boundaries.
And the ultimate boundary is that between the World of Form (the Named) and Emptiness (the Nameless, the Formless, the Absolute).
Removing this boundary, means, in fact, that even Nirvana is transcended & awakening is seen as being not different from our everyday life. It is breaking the final spiritual barrier.

Interpreting the song in this way, you can see a movement from an ordinary, everyday way of seeing things, through Divine Love ("the rays of love", "love went on and on"), then into Emptiness ("love itself was gone"), and finally arriving at where there is no division, where the ordinary and the sacred are no longer separate:
Then I came back from where I'd been.
My room, it looked the same-
But there was nothing left between
The Nameless and the Name.

Explicating like this is, however, a very un-Buddhist thing to do, and a Zen master would probably tell me to go and wash my mouth. If he was the lenient kind...

~Taigaku

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:11 am

You're precious, Taigaku, pure and simple, precious. Your concluding lines......

.

In the interest of Truth, now, I must insist that my name be removed from the list of those giving valid input on this song. I know you had to have meant the figurative, and not the literal, "All." Mine was laughable and belonged on some "Closing Time" thread

. Maybe the temp and humidity were really high that day, and I was delirious. I certainly agree with you, however, on everyone else's

.

I followed your analysis and it sounds most credible. Now, perhaps your Zen master will be as lenient as Roshi, who allowed Leonard to spend time writing songs, whilst prayer and meditation were on the agenda

.

So, go forth and speak no more

[on such matters], but thanks for your truancy and explication

.

~ Elizabeth

Coco · Post by **Coco** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:37 am

Hi Everyone,

I adore this song. It's my favorite on the CD. I think it will be one that many artists will cover in the future.

witty_owl · Post by **witty_owl** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:02 am

Yesterday evening while channel hopping TV I chanced upon Leonard being interviewed re Love Itself. As I understood it(I missed the beginning) he said this "love" is not of the romantic kind or even the spritual connotation but the all encompassing notion of the word. He remarked that in writing the song he had gone into a state of mind where the inner peace and harmony- the quiet mind was so pervasive that even love itself had gone. So I understand he is alluding to a deep meditative state that comes of its own volition. A state that cannot be sought, or practiced but a state of grace that is spontaneous and unexpected.

Regards, Witty Owl.

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:23 am

I wasn't too far out then, in my first impression that it was about, or grew from, a sort of out-of-body experience.

jeannieb · Post by **jeannieb** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:09 am

I always thought that the lyrincs were " the Nameless and the Named", meaning, God and God's creation (himself).

There was nothing left between himslef and God.
JeannieB