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As a mother I am lucky none of my children are fighting.

No matter what our personal opinions I wish all our fighting force God speed and safe return. I also wish all the conscripted men in the Iraq army the same. They don't want to be in that situation any more than we do.

As a mother I wish all the iraq mothers trying their best to protect their children all the hope in the world that they survive hopefully unhurt. I thank my lucky stars I am not in that situation.

And I truly hope at the end of this conflict good comes from it.

We should all count our blessings that we are not them.

Linda ~

Just before you get too carried away over eeey's "excellent research," you [or eeey] might have remained here on this very thread a tad longer, enough to read this post by the one "who starts it every time." Reframing this derogatory reference, I want to thank you for acknowledging my interest in bringing some balance to this heavily- propagandized image that America does no wrong and has only the highest purposes for mankind in its policies and actions.

Did you [and eeey] also exclude from your own "research" tom.d.stiller's note that "most of the things listed can be confirmed with official documents from the U.N. or the U.S. Government, and have been reported repeatedly by pro-American and pro-Israelite media"? Do you really think that the Government's sealed-documents policy [until 50(?) years after the fact] has no public-knowledge/perception purpose? You sweepingly will deny facts of this nature ~ pure economics in an economically-motivated country ~ while you will embrace the horrific, if indeed true, human-torture stories. Another slant on that issue is that organized crime in America has been known to do identical things to people here.

As for your thinly-veiled, hostility campaign directed at me, Linda, how old did you say you are? There tends to be a distinctly-high-school tone to the pettiness of your undermining comments to and towards me. Would your local minister be proud of the way you conduct yourself toward another? Perhaps you might be interested in participating in the abhorrent poll that popped up on my screen while I was trying to get to more information on the CNN site about 17 Iraqi soldiers surrendering in Kuwait. The premise of the poll is: "1 American life is worth:" and the choices are: "0 Iraqi lives / 1 Iraqi life / 100 Iraqi lives / 1000 Iraqi lives / 5000 Iraqi lives / 10,000 Iraqi lives / the Iraqi population." This reeks of the flag-waving mentality I've seen. Human life has no bearing, even the lives of those who have already suffered through whatever means ~ be it at Saddam's hands, or via the 12-years of U.S.-imposed sanctions mentioned way earlier here by, uh, that would be me, again. Thank you again for complimenting me on my awareness and ability to see the bigger picture.

Since I started it, I'll again finish it, for those who aren't invested in conducting true research, akin to "reading the whole chapter."


"Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For my post of March 2, giving the lengthy list re: the U.S., virtually the same list came to me via another person, except this one quoted the source. The following blurb preceded it:

"This is a good summary of basic facts and the case against an attack on Iraq .
You might use these in your deliberations and discussions about the US / Iraq situation.
Charles Sheketoff, Executive Director Oregon Center for Public Policy PO Box 7, Silverton, OR 97381 will vouch for the research that supports the facts contained here. Use and circulate this widely. - Daniel Quinn
A GREAT IQ TEST ON THE IRAQ WAR FROM DANIEL QUINN, THE AUTHOR OF ISHMAEL ETC."


This blurb followed it:

"Charles Sheketoff, Executive Director Oregon Center for Public Policy PO
Box 7, Silverton, OR 97381

********
and
From http://StandDown.net

The United States Government will spend more on the military in fiscal year 2003, than all the rest of the countries on Earth combined. Current expenditures are 437 billion and our past obligations are 339 billion, this equals 776 billion. 46% of our Taxes go to the Military Industrial Complex:
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm This figure doesn't even begin
to account for all of the off-budget, black projects, homeland security nor the 40+ billion the United States Government will spend on intelligence in 2003."


This question closed the list:

"50. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about
things that matter"? A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr."

I feel much better now that I have a source, even though I feel worse with the information itself. "

Lizzytysh,

I feel better about your sources too.

They are the very definition of "wacko sites".

Daniel Quinn, known as DQ to the followers of his "Beyond Civilization" cult, thinks we would all be better off living as tribes. (I thought that was what got us into trouble in the first place?)

He divides the world's history into "Leavers" and "Takers". Guess which country is the "Taker". Right, the devilish United States, with the countries of Europe running a close second. DQ thinks things would be just terrific if only we would live as the aboriginals do. Except of course, He doesn't.

You didn't disappoint with war/resisters.org either, a Marxist mouthpiece left over from the Cold War. Their motto "Revolution Out of Truth and Struggle" would have done Stalin proud. Oh, wait a second...Stalin DID say that...during the 1936 purges. AMAZING!

And the statistics! Current military spending at 459 billion. Of course they have to admit that this includes all weapons, defense systems, homeland security, NASA, salaries, family housing, health costs, education and includes veteran benefits of 63 billion. To inflate these figures war reisister.org had to throw in everything but the kitchen sink. They add to the military budget the INTEREST on the national debt! It's laughable.

Ah, but the piece de resistance is StandDown.net.

This is a must-see site for all conspiracy buffs. It seems the wicked United States and its evil President have hoodwinked the world. We actually blew up the World Trade Center ourselves. The terrorists were just pawns of a great mastermind. (Excuse me, but how can George W. Bush be both an imbecile and a genius?)

Sooooo, Lizzytysh, no need to thank me for the "excellent research". Always happy to oblige.


eeey

Byron, thank-you for your clearsighted poem on the reality of war, and your commonsense and well reasoned comments. I find all conflict distasteful, and in true ostrich fashion have been working on the principle that the less I knew about this one, the less likely it was to happen. Now that I am forced to face the reality I can only hope, silly bird that I am, that it will all be over as soon as possible, and that something positive can be made to come of it, to give some sort of meaning to the sacrifice of all those young lives.

eeey ~

When one considers the inflated cost of weaponry and supplies, when contracted out by the government to the private sector; and that the earnings of soldiers keep them and their families at the poverty level, and the military retirements aren't much above that, it doesn't take too much to figure where the priorities lie....and where the money goes. I didn't realize that you didn't realize the true costs of war. Pretty expensive endeavour.

Yes, it takes a village to raise a child holds a great deal of appeal for me. To share a quote from the "Well Being Journal":

"In the mid-nineteenth century, German sociologist Ferdinand Tonnies was among the first to point out that the grand efficiencies of 'advanced' society might have a downside. He wrote of Gemeinschaft versus Gesellschaft: the localized, community-rooted, cohesive work of preindustrial society (the 'it takes a village' philosophy) versus the competitive, soulless, striving society of industrialism, and the risk of a loss of personal identity in the modern workplace." It goes on to discuss this in the context of working too hard or too long, or at jobs too much at odds with our natural instincts, for the good of our brains."

The aboriginals.......very spiritual.

I also happen to find much creedence in the conspiracy theory, and being the figurehead of same does not require genius status. He can't even talk right. Strictly the figurehead of his greed regime, which also doesn't require genius. Somehow you bypassed Charles Sheketoff, where I understood the compiled figures to come from, vs. Daniel Quinn, who is urging their distribution.

We probably couldn't be any more at odds, eeey....and you and Linda couldn't be any more closely aligned. I prefer where I'm at.

Lizzytysh,

Charles Sheketoff is a socialist lawyer on the make. Runs a non-profit (HA!) organization in Oregon. He's always belly-aching about America. And makes a good living doing it. So it's no surprise that Sheketoff can "vouch" for the "statistics" in the IRAQ IQ Quiz.

And Lizzytysh, are you saying that you believe George W. Bush was behind the destruction of the World Trade Center? If you do, then say so plainly. Stop hiding behind these conspiracy links that you post all over the Forum.

eeey,

P.S. As far as allies go, I'll take Linda and you can have Byron, Margaret, SongKathy, tom.d.stiller, Andrew McGeever, Robert, Georges and the entire nation of France.

Well, first and foremost, were they yours to give, eeey, I'd thank you, as I couldn't count myself amidst and amongst finer company. However, they remain entities unto themselves and will give of themselves as they wish. Thanks for the thought, regardless.

The conspiracy references go beyond my thoughts regarding Bush and September 11.....however, yes, I do feel he knew about it, and placed himself in a politically-correct, photo-op position with the elementary-school children, reading them a story, which just happened to be quite safely away from personal danger for himself. However, I've very openly expressed these thoughts previously, perhaps on the Sony Board and not here, well, yes, now that I think about it ~ it was there, and not here, as until this war situation began to congeal, I tried not to stray so far topic-ly.

I wanted to keep myself out of this thread, but be it one more posting:
I thank you, eeey, for the honor of being put into this excellent company, though I'm not sure about all in France - some might be more in your line. I can only hope to be accepted.

Tom

Lizzytysh,

Now that I know that you are a conspiracy theorist I will abandon any attempt at discussing this subject logically with you.

When you have spoken enthusiastically about your fascination with numerology I kept quiet. And your rattling on about astral planes only amused me.

But your belief that George W. Bush and his cronies destroyed the World Trade Center is too much for me.

It's nutty.

eeey

eeey. May I extend my eternal gratitude to you for your unbelievable generosity in freely and willingly taking Linda.

As those of us who are now conjoined in your 'list' are mostly all from across the Atlantic Ocean, we can hope that with your obvious grasp of material and historical detail, that you can explain to your protege that we accept that Sept. 11 was horrible.

We all cried with you over the deaths of 3000 souls.
Linda has so eloquently once again reminded us of an act of barbarity which is seared into my brain, as well as everyone else's.

Speaking for myself, I hope that you can now explain to her that she may be in error in claiming that war is not worse than that.

eeey, with your books and facts you can show her that during the years of 1939 to 1945, my country was at the receiving end of months of nightly bombing from the German Airforce.

London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Coventry, Newcastle, etc etc endured night after night after night after night of thousands of civilians huddling in makeshift shelters, or under stairs, or in holes dug in back gardens, or in underground stations as hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives and incendiary devices were poured out of German aircraft onto innocent women and children.

I genuinely cried for your country when you were attacked on your own soil. (Perhaps you could add my name to a list of those who cried?)

While you are enlightening your protege, perhaps you would be good enough to point out to her that for over 30 years my country has been at the receiving end of IRA indiscriminate bombing of those same cities.

We have just had to endure the 10th Anniversary of the blowing up of the centre of Warrington when 2 boys were destroyed in the blast.

eeey, please be good enough to explain to her that because you were attacked once on your own soil, that you do not have the monopoly or precedence in knowing what the reality of war is.

Germany, Italy, Spain have all suffered terrible outrages from terrorist groups over the last few decades.

eeey, you put me on a list. How dare you be so arrogant.

Can't you see that to take your stance to its ultimate conclusion, anyone who doesn't agree with your concept of democracy is considered to be against you.

Look at yourself, you've already started your list.

The others on your list will have their own feelings to come to terms with, but I will NOT sit quietly when my given name is printed in a public forum by someone who claims to have democratic principles. Shame on you!

Where will it end eeey, this list of yours?

At the gates of the concentration camps? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW ONE LOT OF INNOCENTS ENDED UP!!

You have done yourself no favours and I for one feel deeply hurt by an apparent display of arrogance.

Andrew had a poem dedicated and carved into a war memorial.

Georges lives in a land torn by war and strife.

One can only imagine how they must be feeling.

Shame on you.

Tom. G-d bless.

Well said Byron, war is horrible no matter where it strikes..........
in war there can be little pure love
Georges

I have refrained from responding as much as I would like to Lizzytysh's posts here and elsewhere. I don't believe this is the place for what she is doing. Discussing is one thing that is not discussing in my opinion. We are all capable of reading and researching and with an open mind arriving at our own conclusions as to what is right and what is wrong. I am not some school girl on this play ground (which is what it is right now). I was there for the Vietman War, I lost many classmates. I watched the protests with an open mind. Afew friends came home from there and I have listened to them. An Uncle served in World War I although he never talked about it much, his health was very poor from being gassed in the trenches. Two Uncles fought in World war II. My husband was in the military, not during war time. A nephew retired from the military just recently. I could go on. Yes, I am a conservative, and have arrived at that decision by listening, reading and watching everything I could and with an open mind sorting it out. Years ago what was printed or said in public had to be a fact, people were held accountable. Not anymore. I am being fed propaganda and so are you my friend.

I am proud to be in eeeys corner. eeey is a very well rounded individual, who does her homework. Not just someone who only believes what they want to hear. A very intelligent educated person. My only degree is from life itself.

What brought me to this message board in the first place, and what we all have in common is LC. And one of the things that attracked me to his music was his sincerity and his integritity. Something I look for in everything and everyone.

Yes, may G_d bless us all. And I only write it that way out of respect for whom this board is dedicated.

I have the utmost respect for Byron and Margaret informed comments on the war.

I work in the City of London. It is second nature to look for any unattended objects, we have suffered a great deal in London from terrorist activitiy. Manchester and Warrington have also suffered as have a host of other areas in Britian not just from the IRA but a multitute of terrorist groups. It would be nice if the USA didn't fund NORAID but there is a great deal of funding from the USA.

The USA has not had a similar history. The WTC was a stomach churning, sickening event. It also took place on television so we could see the onset and the subsequent images which are certainly seared on my mind. The USA lost its "virginity" in that horror and the reality of terrorist hit home. It is a reality that we and a great deal of Europe have dealt with for years.

As a consequence the knee jerk reaction was to retaliate which is what this war is about.

First, you still do not address me directly. It's the gossipy nature of your posts, the mouth- shielded "Did you see what she did/is doing/said?" manner in which you speak of me, always with a bit of a dig included that I'm referring to....as though the conversation were between only yourself and eeey, or with whomever you address your post to for your purpose. Have you never noticed how, even though I have responded to many of your posts both here and elsewhere over the past 1 1/2 years, I have not done so with personal attack ~ or is that simply irrelevant to you? This, despite the reverse being the case. Look me in the eye and talk to me, Linda....instead of around me, behind my back, or in cellophanic "cloaked" references.

Your myopia continues to astound me, as well. With a thread 10 pages long, "for what she is doing" is how you crystallize it. Are my posts the only ones of interest to you? Are you missing the connection between my and others' postings?

You've "listened to" those returning from VietNam sounds almost patronizing, that 3 steps back.....did you hear what they said? Did you feel what they said?

I would certainly trust people doing their own research, reading, listening to the more balanced versions of the news, etc. but I know better. I live here. I know Rush Limbaugh's, etc. popularity with conservatives. I know the standard news fare and its 10-second clips never go into depth. I know much information is withheld or never listened to. Facts and information are good things in a democracy, as well as anywhere else, Linda. I feel it is very important to get some of them out. This war has been a major distraction for most everyone on this Forum. I apologize to Jarkko for the diversions toward it, yet it remains an issue that compels us all [or so I would hope]. At least the bulk of the war discussion has occurred in the "for Members" section.

~ Elizabeth