Bob Dylan once wrote (tipping his hat to Johnson on the way):
"patriotism is the last refuge
to which a scoundrel clings,
steal a little and they throw you in gaol,
steal a lot and they make you king"
Seemed relevant from an old rock star......
GEORGE W. BUSH
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Jonnie Falafel
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:36 pm
- Location: Arezzo, Tuscany, Italy
- Contact:
Byron, thank you for your suggestions not to learn about life from the TV, sure- that would be to late for me anyhow, since I am old enough to know thing or two about life and other cultures just by living. 
About war- I hate war, I've been close to that, war has hurt me and my family many times.
OK, let me tell you a little story, what happened to me some 20 years or some ago. Than I was still living back in Latvia. My older son, at that time just 18years old was drafted to the Russian army. It wa a time, when there was a war with Afghanistan. As Latvia was under the occupation of Russia at that time, my son had to go. He was a big-6'3" blond boy, a good athlete, a champ in reggby. Surely enough he was taken to special forces training camp. We did not hear from him for 3 month, I thougt he was somewhere in Tadgikistan, near Afghanistan.
One late November nighte there was ring at my door and there was my son with 2 Asian looking army officers at my door. My son was shaven bold, very pale, in a horrible russian army jacket- called puficka, smth. like that. The officers told me, that they brought my son Ivar to me to say final goodbyes, because he was an army deserter, he was to go under the military tribunal for deserting and being a traitor to fatherland.
Needless to say about my emotions about that, but sure enough I got them all inside. My first thought was to buy time, to have more time, so my son was not taken away from me- helpless and without a clue what happened. I had vodka on more drinks at home- I worked as the best bartender there was in the world at that moment- the 2 officers were prety mellow after 1 hour of drinks round and round. However, my son was not alowed to speak to me. So i cooked a dinner and more drinks, finally the officers agreed to stay over night, they would deliver my son to the military prison in the morning. For some reason they had to deliver him to the region he was drafted from. When the officers were drunk and asleep, I had the chance to speek to Ivar. Turns out he has cut his wrists to kill himself, not wanting to jump from the helicopter into some place in Afghanistan. Was he so afraid to go there? Was he so depressed that he wanted to kill himself? i needed to know- so I could save my son from pretty sure death sentence in the military tribunal. And God bless vodka for ever and ever- it saved me. I had that time with my son at nighte to learn all and work out the strategy what to do. He told me, that of course he had no intentions to kill himself, but same time, he knew he would not do the killing he was being trained to do- the knifes and guns etc. He said that he set himself to cut his wrists in a very calculated time before the morning alarm, so his comrades would save him from tottal bleeding to death. Than he said, that the russian rasor blades were so goddamn bad, not sharp enough- it took him a long time to cut trough the skin and not enough time to bleed seriously enough to be taken for a commited suicidal freek. his plan went very wrong, that's how he was accused of being a desertier, which of course he was.
In the morning I insisted to go first to the general of the Riga garnison military office. Since the officers had a heavy hangover they did not argue too much with me and they let me go with them to the general. We waited for a long time. There was a paperwork done, but I was permitted to stay. At first the general questioned my son, than he was kind enough totalk to me privately. i told him that my son was mentally disturbed for a long time, he needed help, not the death sentence, I was going on and on. I told that even my son's father was compleately crazy and has died by throwing himself under the train. That was a big lie, sure, my husband was dead, but he died of a heart attack playing a basketball- he was young, just 39 years old. But who was there to tell that I am telling a lie? And it was helping my son, because what if he inherited the mental ilness? I any case, i would have bought a sertificate, if necessary, to give a proof, that he died under the train or whatever. The genereal got so tired of me and my lies, that he sent us back to Tadgiskistan, to the regional general, so my son could be observed in the military mental hospital. It took us some time to travel, I made sure I had the drinks, the vodka bottles with us at all times, taking some more stuff with me- as "gifts"
That general in Tadgikistan- he was pretty angry guy. Well, I had to go on my knees and beg him and kiss his boots to let my son be placed in the military hospital.
There was a problem, because my son was not crazy at all. The hardest part was, that in the mental hospital there were guys intetionally provoking him, to prove, that he is faking it. They would tell jokes, and how would not an 18 years old not to laugh at jokes? Means- you are not crazy, you understand, you are not depressed. I lived in the town with very nice muslim people, but of course, i could not tell the truth- what was going on. Just it came to my mind, that if my son would take up on knitting, than all of them would really think- he was crazy and he would have a chance to concentrate on knitting - he would survive. He did the knitting and he did survive. After a month he was transferred back to Riga, than I paid some money and from the military hospital he was trasferred to the civilian mental institution. That was already OK, the doctor there was a friend of mine.
Ivar was free after a month or so.
My heir turned very white, even I was still young. Soon after that I decided to leave that country forever, because I had a younger son, so- that I did.
Dear Byron, once you asked me to express my condoleneces to you about the fallen British soldiers. I could not do that, and I am sorry for that. But if I knew the mothers of the dear boy's- I would cry with them and kiss their feet. The pain what they endure is unbearable.
Sorry, my story turned out longer as I wanted to, just some thoughts and memories about war and learning about cultures from TV.
Love
About war- I hate war, I've been close to that, war has hurt me and my family many times. OK, let me tell you a little story, what happened to me some 20 years or some ago. Than I was still living back in Latvia. My older son, at that time just 18years old was drafted to the Russian army. It wa a time, when there was a war with Afghanistan. As Latvia was under the occupation of Russia at that time, my son had to go. He was a big-6'3" blond boy, a good athlete, a champ in reggby. Surely enough he was taken to special forces training camp. We did not hear from him for 3 month, I thougt he was somewhere in Tadgikistan, near Afghanistan.
One late November nighte there was ring at my door and there was my son with 2 Asian looking army officers at my door. My son was shaven bold, very pale, in a horrible russian army jacket- called puficka, smth. like that. The officers told me, that they brought my son Ivar to me to say final goodbyes, because he was an army deserter, he was to go under the military tribunal for deserting and being a traitor to fatherland.
Needless to say about my emotions about that, but sure enough I got them all inside. My first thought was to buy time, to have more time, so my son was not taken away from me- helpless and without a clue what happened. I had vodka on more drinks at home- I worked as the best bartender there was in the world at that moment- the 2 officers were prety mellow after 1 hour of drinks round and round. However, my son was not alowed to speak to me. So i cooked a dinner and more drinks, finally the officers agreed to stay over night, they would deliver my son to the military prison in the morning. For some reason they had to deliver him to the region he was drafted from. When the officers were drunk and asleep, I had the chance to speek to Ivar. Turns out he has cut his wrists to kill himself, not wanting to jump from the helicopter into some place in Afghanistan. Was he so afraid to go there? Was he so depressed that he wanted to kill himself? i needed to know- so I could save my son from pretty sure death sentence in the military tribunal. And God bless vodka for ever and ever- it saved me. I had that time with my son at nighte to learn all and work out the strategy what to do. He told me, that of course he had no intentions to kill himself, but same time, he knew he would not do the killing he was being trained to do- the knifes and guns etc. He said that he set himself to cut his wrists in a very calculated time before the morning alarm, so his comrades would save him from tottal bleeding to death. Than he said, that the russian rasor blades were so goddamn bad, not sharp enough- it took him a long time to cut trough the skin and not enough time to bleed seriously enough to be taken for a commited suicidal freek. his plan went very wrong, that's how he was accused of being a desertier, which of course he was.
In the morning I insisted to go first to the general of the Riga garnison military office. Since the officers had a heavy hangover they did not argue too much with me and they let me go with them to the general. We waited for a long time. There was a paperwork done, but I was permitted to stay. At first the general questioned my son, than he was kind enough totalk to me privately. i told him that my son was mentally disturbed for a long time, he needed help, not the death sentence, I was going on and on. I told that even my son's father was compleately crazy and has died by throwing himself under the train. That was a big lie, sure, my husband was dead, but he died of a heart attack playing a basketball- he was young, just 39 years old. But who was there to tell that I am telling a lie? And it was helping my son, because what if he inherited the mental ilness? I any case, i would have bought a sertificate, if necessary, to give a proof, that he died under the train or whatever. The genereal got so tired of me and my lies, that he sent us back to Tadgiskistan, to the regional general, so my son could be observed in the military mental hospital. It took us some time to travel, I made sure I had the drinks, the vodka bottles with us at all times, taking some more stuff with me- as "gifts"
That general in Tadgikistan- he was pretty angry guy. Well, I had to go on my knees and beg him and kiss his boots to let my son be placed in the military hospital.
There was a problem, because my son was not crazy at all. The hardest part was, that in the mental hospital there were guys intetionally provoking him, to prove, that he is faking it. They would tell jokes, and how would not an 18 years old not to laugh at jokes? Means- you are not crazy, you understand, you are not depressed. I lived in the town with very nice muslim people, but of course, i could not tell the truth- what was going on. Just it came to my mind, that if my son would take up on knitting, than all of them would really think- he was crazy and he would have a chance to concentrate on knitting - he would survive. He did the knitting and he did survive. After a month he was transferred back to Riga, than I paid some money and from the military hospital he was trasferred to the civilian mental institution. That was already OK, the doctor there was a friend of mine.
Ivar was free after a month or so.
My heir turned very white, even I was still young. Soon after that I decided to leave that country forever, because I had a younger son, so- that I did.
Dear Byron, once you asked me to express my condoleneces to you about the fallen British soldiers. I could not do that, and I am sorry for that. But if I knew the mothers of the dear boy's- I would cry with them and kiss their feet. The pain what they endure is unbearable.
Sorry, my story turned out longer as I wanted to, just some thoughts and memories about war and learning about cultures from TV.
Love
bee
Dear Bi ~
We disagree, and will probably always disagree, in our politics. However, your real-life account was very moving. Very interesting, as well, as in the pages of a book, but more moving, knowing that it really happened, and that it was you and your son to whom it happened. It's an account of the better side of human beings ~ willing to do whatever they need to, to not kill others; and of one woman's determination, fueled by a mother's love to save her child. Very innovative, deliberate, and courageous moves you took, some of them sounding as if they appeared in the moment, in response to the dire need. Both you and Ivar had overall, large-scale plans and the short-term plans, which needed to be carried out 'perfectly' in order to achieve the overall. I dare say that many mothers would have been overcome by the emotions of the moment, heart-seeringly said their goodbyes, and that would have been the last they saw of their son.
I also believe that, even though I don't know under what 'clause' they would 'sentence' you, that you equally risked your own life, to the same measure that your son's already was, whilst you carried out your plan. The truth is that it was brilliant thinking on your part, figuratively right out of the best of movies or books, but that's the 'intellectual' side of what you did. The heart side of what you did brings tears. As I said, we may always be at different ends of the pole, politically, but I was solidly in the center, with you, on this. Thank you so much for sharing this phenomenal, human account. As Paula has asked, how is [and I add, where is] Ivar now? Were it not for you, he wouldn't be.
Love,
Elizabeth
We disagree, and will probably always disagree, in our politics. However, your real-life account was very moving. Very interesting, as well, as in the pages of a book, but more moving, knowing that it really happened, and that it was you and your son to whom it happened. It's an account of the better side of human beings ~ willing to do whatever they need to, to not kill others; and of one woman's determination, fueled by a mother's love to save her child. Very innovative, deliberate, and courageous moves you took, some of them sounding as if they appeared in the moment, in response to the dire need. Both you and Ivar had overall, large-scale plans and the short-term plans, which needed to be carried out 'perfectly' in order to achieve the overall. I dare say that many mothers would have been overcome by the emotions of the moment, heart-seeringly said their goodbyes, and that would have been the last they saw of their son.
I also believe that, even though I don't know under what 'clause' they would 'sentence' you, that you equally risked your own life, to the same measure that your son's already was, whilst you carried out your plan. The truth is that it was brilliant thinking on your part, figuratively right out of the best of movies or books, but that's the 'intellectual' side of what you did. The heart side of what you did brings tears. As I said, we may always be at different ends of the pole, politically, but I was solidly in the center, with you, on this. Thank you so much for sharing this phenomenal, human account. As Paula has asked, how is [and I add, where is] Ivar now? Were it not for you, he wouldn't be.
Love,
Elizabeth
I agree with this. Two sides to everything.The tragedy is in the fact- that with the enlightenment, education, compassion, all the best qualities in humankind- also comes the weakness, indicisiveness, laziness,
Which was the tangential point I was trying to make with 'globalization'. It is competition that breeds other qualities that are essential for survival and success, like endurance, strength innovation etc. We can see the evidence for this in nature. Survival of the fittest.
Breeding a culture of competitiveness on a global level is what "globalization" is about. Some may dislike George W.'s style but if you read between the lines some of his ideas re' outsourcing is quite close to Bill Clintons.
Thank you Byron, Elizabeth, Paula 
Ivar lives in Latvia, he is married, has a beautiful son and a daughter, he has several businesses, he's doing well. Still, I would never live there, I just go for a visit. My younger son Chris lives here with me in SF, he's graduated from Universtity this year in May.
One of his close friends Rob joined the Air Force last spring. He was in Texas for a while, visited us in September. He was great. Rob said he has overcome his natural laziness and has turnd to a real man
Kush, I agree with you on Bush. It took me some time to understand what he's about. His manner and personality is so awkward sometimes, which is so misleading. Especially after the bliss with what Clinton charmed us all etc. And isn't that true, that simplicity might contain very complex things? It always amuses me, when some people call Bush stupid, especially when it comes from obviously very stupid people.
If you remember how provincial and awkward looking were Hillary and Bill when they first came to the White House? Not anymore.
So we'll see what the future brings, God willing
Ivar lives in Latvia, he is married, has a beautiful son and a daughter, he has several businesses, he's doing well. Still, I would never live there, I just go for a visit. My younger son Chris lives here with me in SF, he's graduated from Universtity this year in May.
One of his close friends Rob joined the Air Force last spring. He was in Texas for a while, visited us in September. He was great. Rob said he has overcome his natural laziness and has turnd to a real man
Kush, I agree with you on Bush.
It took me some time to understand what he's about. His manner and personality is so awkward sometimes, which is so misleading. Especially after the bliss with what Clinton charmed us all etc. And isn't that true, that simplicity might contain very complex things? It always amuses me, when some people call Bush stupid, especially when it comes from obviously very stupid people.If you remember how provincial and awkward looking were Hillary and Bill when they first came to the White House? Not anymore.
So we'll see what the future brings, God willing
bee
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
bee,
let's push Bush aside for now (just for now), because I guess we'd never agree on that issue.
Your story deeply moved me, and I'm really glad that it didn't turn out as bad as it - unfortunately - could have.
I always thought that the USSR troops didn't have any business in Afghanistan. And far from being a socialist paradise the former USSR really was a cruel and inhuman dictatorship.
I hope that the future brings all the best to you and to both your sons.
Tom
let's push Bush aside for now (just for now), because I guess we'd never agree on that issue.
Your story deeply moved me, and I'm really glad that it didn't turn out as bad as it - unfortunately - could have.
I always thought that the USSR troops didn't have any business in Afghanistan. And far from being a socialist paradise the former USSR really was a cruel and inhuman dictatorship.
I hope that the future brings all the best to you and to both your sons.
Tom
Dear Bi ~
Thank you for letting us know how it all turned out for Ivar, as well as the rest of your family, including a friend. I pray that Rob returns home safely, when his time with the Air Force is completed. I'm very glad to know that everyone is doing well at this point, and that both your and your son's courageous actions could in no way ever be considered as having been in vain. You all lived to tell your story, and no one died by your own hands.
~ Elizabeth
Thank you for letting us know how it all turned out for Ivar, as well as the rest of your family, including a friend. I pray that Rob returns home safely, when his time with the Air Force is completed. I'm very glad to know that everyone is doing well at this point, and that both your and your son's courageous actions could in no way ever be considered as having been in vain. You all lived to tell your story, and no one died by your own hands.
~ Elizabeth
President Bushs' father was willing to lie and pull strings to the best of his ability during the 60's to keep his boy out of harms way.
Maybe our invading Iraq is his payback to his daddy. A cleaning up of what his father didn't finish and of course there is that little thing called oil over there.
So this little man, who won't even admit he benefitted from his father's power to get him out of combat, who has his god on his side is willing to send our country's children over to a land where we are not welcome, no matter what the pretense. And they are dying and being mamed for life and their families will never be the same and for what? What high horse are we riding to justify this act?
Bee, your son did not die. Although you story is touching, it does nothing to bolster your angry outbursts to those who oppose your view. Using MMoore as an effigy is getting old and tiresome. He is not the 'leader' of those who do not agree with You. He is one voice. Just like you are.
Byron~ I grieve for the big picture, too. Not just for those who are personally touched by tragedy.
regards,
Laurie
Maybe our invading Iraq is his payback to his daddy. A cleaning up of what his father didn't finish and of course there is that little thing called oil over there.
So this little man, who won't even admit he benefitted from his father's power to get him out of combat, who has his god on his side is willing to send our country's children over to a land where we are not welcome, no matter what the pretense. And they are dying and being mamed for life and their families will never be the same and for what? What high horse are we riding to justify this act?
Bee, your son did not die. Although you story is touching, it does nothing to bolster your angry outbursts to those who oppose your view. Using MMoore as an effigy is getting old and tiresome. He is not the 'leader' of those who do not agree with You. He is one voice. Just like you are.
Byron~ I grieve for the big picture, too. Not just for those who are personally touched by tragedy.
regards,
Laurie
Dear Elizabeth- thank you for your very warm thoughts and love. I have not spoken about these events in my past for many years. Still it lives inside of me making some sort of connection to all that war business and death and suffering. I think in life there comes a time for everyone in one form or another- time of a great danger when you are just lucky to come out alive.
Thank you for wishing well for my boys and that boy Rob too.
Guess what- just an hour ago I was given a present by a friend-" Dear Heather ":D Listening to that right now- how awesome and lovely!!! I loved The Letters, just everything- now I am going the second time, great
Love
Thank you for wishing well for my boys and that boy Rob too.
Guess what- just an hour ago I was given a present by a friend-" Dear Heather ":D
Listening to that right now- how awesome and lovely!!! I loved The Letters, just everything- now I am going the second time, great Love
bee
Laurie- my outbursts are no more angry than anyone elses- same thing, just like yours right now .
what I think about politics is of no importance, makes no difference in the bigger picture. But we all talk about it, we are free to do so. Sure- most of the times it makes no sense at all.
Things will happen anyway.
Just have to mention about the war- there is a draft and than there is a professional army.
There were times in russia under the zar, the draft was designed in such a way, that when the time was up- the young men were to go to the court house to drow the numbers. If you were unlucky- you had a number- so your time was to serve for 25 years. Pretty much it meant- say goodbye for ever. Still, who had the money- they had the right to buy their son out. Most of the times the boys only from the poor families ended up serving in the army for 25 years. many of them were going trough several wars. I remember my grandomther told me about the one unlucky in our family,his name was jean, who was serving for 25 years. He happend to fight on some Russian war ships, when there was a war with Japan. I think it was sometimes in 1880's if I'm not mistaken now. I was told- he managed to come back- with one wodden leg. But all the same- his sweetheart whom he left behind, was married and than again widow, and without much of a teeth left. Did not matter to them- he had a wooden leg, they married anyway. But then came the wonders of his stories, the exotic lands and the Japanese.
I think that things change over times just a little bit
one thing never does- there is and always will be a war.
Take care, Laurie.
. what I think about politics is of no importance, makes no difference in the bigger picture. But we all talk about it, we are free to do so. Sure- most of the times it makes no sense at all.
Things will happen anyway.
Just have to mention about the war- there is a draft and than there is a professional army.
There were times in russia under the zar, the draft was designed in such a way, that when the time was up- the young men were to go to the court house to drow the numbers. If you were unlucky- you had a number- so your time was to serve for 25 years. Pretty much it meant- say goodbye for ever. Still, who had the money- they had the right to buy their son out. Most of the times the boys only from the poor families ended up serving in the army for 25 years. many of them were going trough several wars. I remember my grandomther told me about the one unlucky in our family,his name was jean, who was serving for 25 years. He happend to fight on some Russian war ships, when there was a war with Japan. I think it was sometimes in 1880's if I'm not mistaken now. I was told- he managed to come back- with one wodden leg. But all the same- his sweetheart whom he left behind, was married and than again widow, and without much of a teeth left. Did not matter to them- he had a wooden leg, they married anyway. But then came the wonders of his stories,
the exotic lands and the Japanese. I think that things change over times just a little bit
one thing never does- there is and always will be a war. Take care, Laurie.
bee
Bee,
Very touching story... I have nightmares of my beautiful daughters dragged off to war. My brother was dragged off years ago-only divine providence and luck kept him alive. This president, Bush, is making our lives more dangerous. I don't have the heart to argue and I prayed for a change in our government, but it was not to be. We live our lives now, dressed as arab, dressed as jew. As my friend, Melia, who lives in Israel tells, the suicide bombers only sometimes affect us and we'll have to learn to live with them and treat these disasters as we would a bad accident, only more likely now with all this hate. Most people won't be affected-let's pray for those who are.
Joe
Very touching story... I have nightmares of my beautiful daughters dragged off to war. My brother was dragged off years ago-only divine providence and luck kept him alive. This president, Bush, is making our lives more dangerous. I don't have the heart to argue and I prayed for a change in our government, but it was not to be. We live our lives now, dressed as arab, dressed as jew. As my friend, Melia, who lives in Israel tells, the suicide bombers only sometimes affect us and we'll have to learn to live with them and treat these disasters as we would a bad accident, only more likely now with all this hate. Most people won't be affected-let's pray for those who are.
Joe
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."