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Ciao Makera,

I find it strange that you "trash" the people and organization that took you and your family in when you were left high and dry. I suppose goddess/crones are not obliged to have a sense of gratitude.

Vesuvius

Hi Babz~

A little 'furtherto': As I'm sure you've noticed, 'selective comprehension' is an endemic (self-induced) disease. But it's amazing how the examples ('teaching aids') pop up when you need them to underscore your point! Guess they didn't 'see' the warning sign about where not to fall in (Didn't see their portrait under "Chaos" either)
Best to leave 'em where they fall....

Anyhow, I wanted to correct the year of our amazing experiences, that I put as '97 (when it all began), should have read '99. We arrived (at the shelter) on my husband's birthday, in June, and left on my son's in October (Mine was in between). So, we were sent where we needed to be, not where we thought we wanted to be.

To Bilbao~
Hope you liked the joke about your name i.e. what 'might have been'. Also hope we are not making this too difficult for you with our 'smart weapons' (i.e.hard words); just keep that dictionary 'loaded' and 'ready to
fire', I think you will be fine. Ah, the beauty of our weapons.

To Helven, Tat'jana~
We miss you. The favourite LC songs you mentioned are among my favourites too (I don't have Thousand Kisses Deep though ) I would add Democracy, Ring the Bells, If it Be Your Will (my favourite prayer), Sisters of Mercy & Last Year's Man. I don't have his latest , or 10 New Songs.

with Love
Gennelle

ps re: previous edit, only the 'where' not the 'what'. (a little discretion is good security)

Ciao Makera,

It is better to be guilty of "selective comprehension" then to be guilty of biting the hand that feeds you. More sharper than a serpents tooth...

Vesuvius

Well, glory be, a compliment no less! As spoken of Cordelia, the truest heart! ('Though Shakespeare's a bit pissed at your bastardizing his grammar ) Oh, the irony here is exquisite!

Cordelia:
"Time shall unfold what plighted cunning hides,
Who covers faults, at last with shame derides.
Well may you prosper."

("How sharper....." indeed!!)

Ciao Crone Makera,

My words were no compliment. As well you know.

So drop the faux irony. You are out of your league.


Vesuvius

P.S. You are still an ingrate to those who helped you.

To Helven, Tat'jana~
We miss you.

Hello dear friends,
I was off-line, unfortunately – I had to put in order my computer.

Hello Albert,

Surely it is self evident that when a Great woman achieves her greatness, the answer to Helven and Elizabeth's response is that there is no one in front OR behind her. Because she is Beside Herself with Joy. Therefore, we can safely say that the answer to our search is that we must find Joy!!

But how can a woman be accompanied by Joy if there is no man beside her? Oh, I could hardly imagine it! At least, it is impossible for me. Mmm… what a pity! It means that I’ll never be a great woman… Well, I surely wouldn’t like to!

Ciao, Vesuvius,

Women are no better and no worse than men.

I completely agree with you! [Well, actually, I don’t… Because – I hope, my “sisters” will forgive me – deep in my heart I’ve always considered men to be better than women… But it’s only my own opinion, of course…]

But, Barbara and Gennelle, I like your poems very much! I’d like to add my own one but my English is too poor… And, yet, I’ll try to put here something that flashed through my mind when I read the thread.
(Vesuvius, I’d like to address it to you as well as to all the men who will read it. And I wish it were a beautiful poem… Yet, I hope, you’ll understand what all of these is about and forgive me magnanimously my clumsy style and mistakes. – To be magnanimous is so masculine, I believe. [And that’s why I like men, apart from everything else ])

Pretending to be Goddess, I’ve been fighting with you for a long time. I cried about my rights, I expected obedience and worship. Having put on the mask of Destruction Goddess I crushed your wrong ways to treat me. You were confused, you were in panic and you strengthened your defences. But I’ve breached them. And now I’m here to say that all that I’ve done was done for you only – I wanted you to be able to come to me, free from thirst for enslavement and possession, look in my eyes, see your reflection there and comprehend how beautiful you are.

Old Crone Helven (or just Tanya).

PS By the way, Gennelle, I’ve got some of Marianne Faithfull. Great songs! And I like Broken English. Actually, the question “What are you fighting for?” is my favorite one sometimes.
And, Paula, I like As Tears Goes By, as well. I like it very much.

Hi Byron [aka Albert ] ~

I never saw your post that Helven just referred to. I'm guessing because we posted ours 5 minutes apart, and I went on to somewhere else. "Go on a search for a woman named Joy" to stand beside, and greatness will surely come ~ sounds like a plan to me ~ and if we remember that's "it's got to be the going, not the getting there, that's good," well, our time should be well-spent, even if we never find that Joy woman or greatness .

~ Lizzytysh

Welcome back, Helven! I've been wondering where you be [not proper English ]. The computer world can sure reorder one's agenda, though! Good to see you .

It sounds as though you've had some wonderful, loving, and giving men in your life, through which you've formed your associations and beliefs. I had to look up "magnanimous" in the dictionary, to see if there's something in its definition that I've been overlooking, as I've always considered it more of a "feminine" quality [if we insist ~ as we tend to do ~ on two columns for qualities ]. It seems to be a word that goes both ways and can be put in both columns.

"Showing or suggesting nobility of feeling and generosity of mind: forgiving." As, I think, Vesuvius suggested: encourage men to be noble. That quality of nobility seems to have been long associated with men. That and courage. Not that women lack either, but simply the long-term association. The forgiveness aspect, in particular, along with the earlier part of the definition, I have always associated with women. The expansiveness and the giving that are required qualities for raising families, etc. However, women are also reported to have gone off and done the hunting, while the men [and community] cared for the children, in circa caveman days.

Deepest down, I truly feel that the differences [alluded to by Georges] are to be honoured, respected, and appreciated. It's not by accident that there are two sexes, with notable and appreciable differences. Sorting out what are the innate differences, and what are the socialized differences, is a tough assignment. I've known a number of men who were more sensitive, loving, and forgiving than many vicious women I've encountered. Likewise, I've known women whose attitudes were more masculine-militant and warring than a number of men I've known. What are we really? Do not those potentials exist in all of us? And aren't some of our ways of reacting to the world the result of conditioning, through past rebuffs, ridicule, hostility, or whatever; or supportive, loving kindness, and encouragement.

That's a beautiful prose-poem that you appear to have written [or thought] for a man you deeply love, Helven. It speaks well to the battles we [men and women] have endured with each other. You are magnanimous as you speak in it, and seek the common ground to be found with a loved one. One of the beauties of love is holding up that mirror for another, so you can reflect back and validate, for them, how beautiful they really are.

Love,
Elizabeth

Hi Tanya~

Now you remind me why I missed you so much; how wonderfully wise you are! Your English is magnificent, and so beautifully expressed. Brava!

Yes, Tanya, men are truly wonderful....when they are not 'pricking it out' (that's an Aussie expression for being 'siezed by their anima'). I love them too (we always love our children, regardless, also). I'm sure you must have "soothed a savage breast" more than once before. Speaking of music, I'm so thrilled you like Marianne Faithfull; I had forgotten "What are you fighting for?" (I don't have her music right now: lost with my music collection in Oz), I hope to replace them soon. Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Love,

Gennelle

PS Your lovely prose poem reminded me of the last chapter in Song of Songs, and the line from the Shulamite: "then I became in his eyes as one who found/brings peace."
___________________________________
'Am I man dreaming I am butterfly, or, butterfly am I dreaming man I am.'

Hi Elizabeth,

That's a beautiful prose-poem that you appear to have written [or thought] for a man you deeply love, Helven.

Oh, yes, you’re right, I thought of him. But, unfortunately, I didn’t say him something like that in time… There was no appropriate situation… And now it’s much too late…
That’s why I’ve addressed it to all the men (on behalf of all the fighting, but, yet, still loving women)…

And as for magnanimity, I was surprised having read that it’s “more of a "feminine" quality”. Maybe, I used wrong English word… But I surely meant “nobility of feeling and generosity of mind” that helps to forgive mistakes, wrong ways of conduct and so on… Unfortunately, it seems to me that we (women) harbour a grudge or show ourselves as uncompromising persons more often than men… [I must say I do mean now none of those who I’ve met here! I mean rather my previous observations – and, of course, myself.]
But, in any case, you are right, it’s quite funny to “insist ~ as we tend to do ~ on two columns for qualities”.

And also you were completely right saying,

What are we really? Do not those potentials exist in all of us? And aren't some of our ways of reacting to the world the result of conditioning, through past rebuffs, ridicule, hostility, or whatever; or supportive, loving kindness, and encouragement.

Wise words!

Love,
Tanya

PS By the way, if we take phrase “she can be accompanied by Joy” – what form of a rhetorical question will be correct? I’ve thought for a long time before posting but I wasn’t able “to make up” something acceptable… Oh, probably, it must be “how does she can be accompanied…?” …but, on the other hand, the question “what can I say?”, for example, composes without any “do” … Help me, please, for God’s sake!

Hi Gennelle,

Yes, Tanya, men are wonderful....when they are not 'pricking it out' (that's an Aussie expression for being 'siezed by their anima').

Oh, yes! But we also are very “nice” sometimes! Aren’t we?

Love,
Tanya.

PS Thanks for your kind words

Dear Tanya ~

I've been where you are and know, for myself, how it is to look back and realize that the appropriate situation could have been created, were it not for the frozen pride. The even more painful realization is that all the positives, that come with the presence of the loved one in your life, so outweigh the negatives of the slights, and perceived "non-compliance" [with our expectations of how every single thing "should" be]. Now there is nothing. There is nothing to change. I'm wondering if "I'm Your Man" speaks to you in some of the ways it has to me. Sometimes we prioritize too late, and find the waters too turbulent to ever cross back over. I wonder if anyone has parodied his song, i.e. "I'm Your [Wo]Man" ~ "I'll change the oil for you."

With seriousness, I think of "Seventy-Six," a favourite of mine:

"Seventy-Six

A man is born gentle and weak.
At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
At their death they are withered and dry.
Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.
Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
A tree that is unbending is easily broken.
The hard and strong will fall.
The soft and weak will overcome."

~ Lao Tsu
Tao Te Ching

It offers lessons for many areas of our lives, yet the frozen pride will continue to wreak its havoc, to destroy what could be. Even your addressing your prose-poem to all the men helps to neutralize the effect your Destroyer mask had on your relationship. You are still in the universe. He is still here, too. So are any other men who will come into your life. You have sent out waves of softness and love that will affect everything that comes back to you, and all that you encounter. Your gesture is a beautiful one, Tanya . I'm glad you chose to do it here. Healing words are appropriate in any environment.

When I spoke of magnanimous being "more of a 'feminine' quality," I was only speaking of my own connotation with it. Your words are what sent me to the dictionary to see what I may have been missing all this time. However, as you explain a little more, I do know what I think you mean. AT the risk of generalizing , it does seem that men "take in" whatever occurs [if they even noticed it ] and "just keep going." Their commonly-perceived role as "problem-solvers" shifts their focus toward what to do next, how to "fix" things, what action to take, even if it's only to "strengthen [their] defenses," by grabbing another layer of emotional armor for protection.

Whereas, we [as women] may tend to mull things over, brood more, and as "necessary," hold grudges and/or want to "talk about it" ~ sometimes to death . At least over here, men as a whole tend to be socialized to be action-oriented [hence, "just keep going"?] rather than thinking [much less talking about ] how they're feeling. Women tend to be socialized to be nurturers, focused on emotions, and expressing and talking about how they feel. These are generalities only! However, understanding some of these differences can help in working all those things out. It does seem that reconciliation is much easier accomplished when you approach the man, versus when he approaches you. There do seem [in my experience] to be fewer layers for you to have to penetrate before you can just "go on" with him.

Your prose-poem is already poignant, and now even sad, knowing that you feel [as it may well be] too late for your relationship with him. Without knowing the details, I can't say, "......yet you never know," so I'll stick with what I know. Your dedication of your poem to the men is healing.....and may still reach him, in its way, as the universe tends to facilitate.

You've posed a grammatical question that I have no quick answer to . However, I do have a suggestion ~ that you join us on the thread of analyzing Leonard's poem, "A Life Of Errands" ~ in the "Leonard Cohen's poetry and novels" section. Grammar, structure, style, and meaning will all get discussed there. You may find it interesting, as well as educational. After class, you may even want to ask the professor for a suggestion on the rhetorical form for that sentence In the meantime, maybe someone else has an answer. Barbara perhaps?

"Is Joy not always beside her?" still leaves room for debate. How about, "Is Joy not already her middle name?" Hmmm......if I wake up in the middle of the night with the answer, you'll be the first to know . It seems a tough one.

Love,
Elizabeth

"A serpent may bite when it is not charmed; the babbler is no different."...
the words of his mouth begin with foolishness and the end of his talk is raving madness. A fool also multiplies words...." Eccles 10:11,13,14.

"Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools." Prov 26:9

Be Aware!!

"Listen to the fools reproach! it is a Kingly title!" William Blake

Ciao Makera,

Please do not beat yourself up. You are not a babbler. While it is true that you are posting like mad this is only to be expected from a devotee of Edgar Cayce. IT does not matter that you post at least 5.33 times a day! So continue to write! Continue to multiply your words!

Vesuvius