hell bent on war
We were discussing the alleged righteousness of the impending war, Linda. The "enemy" [and all inherent connotations of that powerful word], and war/even "peacetime" atrocities, are not always "the other guy" kind of stuff. I'm also not saying that Saddam is a good guy. My impression is that he's not. Where has the U.S. been, however, for the past 12 years regarding his "intolerable" actions. Why are we already talking about Iran and North Korea next? Those kinds of questions, Linda. They outweigh the answers, and when I come across some of those, I feel compelled to share them. As for making the U.S. government look bad, it sure doesn't need my help. It's doing quite well doing that on its own.
Lizzytysh,
Regarding the Iraq IQ Test which you posted...
That bit of propaganda is not an IQ Test or even an anti-American diatribe. It's real purpose is a thinly veiled anti-semitic screed. Next thing you know, you'll be posting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Yours, roiling and vomiting,
eeey
Regarding the Iraq IQ Test which you posted...
That bit of propaganda is not an IQ Test or even an anti-American diatribe. It's real purpose is a thinly veiled anti-semitic screed. Next thing you know, you'll be posting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Yours, roiling and vomiting,
eeey
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
eeey,
If a person goes around saying that the present administration is using the wrong means or lying about their real motives - some people go screaming: "Anti-American Propaganda!"
If someone says that the policy of the present Israli prime minister is wrong - they screech at that person: "Anti-Semitic conspiracy!"
Why can't we call a horse a horse, and a rider a rider? Why these false allegiations? Why those killer phrases? Can't we discuss anything without trying to make the other look a fool or a criminal?
As to "the bit of propaganda": most of the things listed can be confirmed with officals documents from the UN or the US Government, and have been reported repeatedly by pro-American and pro-Israelite media.
Tom
(I don't share your views, but I'd defend you're right to publish them unmolested, if necessary.)
If a person goes around saying that the present administration is using the wrong means or lying about their real motives - some people go screaming: "Anti-American Propaganda!"
If someone says that the policy of the present Israli prime minister is wrong - they screech at that person: "Anti-Semitic conspiracy!"
Why can't we call a horse a horse, and a rider a rider? Why these false allegiations? Why those killer phrases? Can't we discuss anything without trying to make the other look a fool or a criminal?
As to "the bit of propaganda": most of the things listed can be confirmed with officals documents from the UN or the US Government, and have been reported repeatedly by pro-American and pro-Israelite media.
Tom
(I don't share your views, but I'd defend you're right to publish them unmolested, if necessary.)
tom.d.stiller,
False allegations?
Lizzytysh posted a silly internet "Iraq IQ Test". I searched for the source of it on Google and came up with a bunch of wacko sites. One of whom at least had the honesty to admit that "I'm not sure if all of the statements are true...but it makes you think". How's that for logic.
And as for "can't we discuss anything without trying to make the other look a fool or a criminal" you might want to convince your side of that proposition. After all Lizzytysh & company have been demonizing the United States and its President for months now.
eeey
False allegations?
Lizzytysh posted a silly internet "Iraq IQ Test". I searched for the source of it on Google and came up with a bunch of wacko sites. One of whom at least had the honesty to admit that "I'm not sure if all of the statements are true...but it makes you think". How's that for logic.
And as for "can't we discuss anything without trying to make the other look a fool or a criminal" you might want to convince your side of that proposition. After all Lizzytysh & company have been demonizing the United States and its President for months now.
eeey
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Welcome
Lumps of flesh and bone.
Tissue oozing onto soil.
Carpets of darkening blood.
Screams of agony.
Pleading for mothers.
Sleeves of uniforms with remnants of arm.
Half a foot in half a boot.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you find these words obscene.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you are disgusted with the images these words evoke.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you think this writer should have his words cencorsed.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Bullets which carry no personal hate.
Bullets which have no political viewpoint.
Bullets which were made, sold and profited on.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Minds shattered and wrecked by visions of Hell.
Lives twisted into years of nightmare and anguish.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Anyone who finds these images offensive and anyone who wishes to attack the imagery which they evoke,
Welcome to the reality of war.
In 1914 women gave white feathers to men, who had not signed up to fight, as a public display of their disgust for the cowardice of those men.
Those women never went within earshot of the battlefields.
Those women had no real concept of what war is really like.
They finally discovered the truth of war when broken, crippled, blinded, gassed, maimed, wrecked survivors returned home to a land fit for heroes.
They saw the horror that war really is.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Soldiers are the bravest of the brave.
I owe my life to men such as these.
Be proud of your soldiers.
They are making the sacrifices, not YOU.
Welcome to the reality of war.
I give my whole hearted support to our armed services.
I have nothing but contempt for the Donkeys who are sending them to die.
In ten years time when the wounded are still nursing their broken bodies and managing to survive on the pittance which the state gives them, who will be making money from speeches as they tour on the conference circuits of the 'civilised' world? The Donkeys.
I watched the Suez Crisis; I watched the Cuba Crisis; I watched the Berlin Wall and airlift Crisis; I watched many conflicts and many crises; I watched politicians come and go; I watched opposing armies claim G-d was on their side; I watched man do his worst to his fellow man.
I watched the blood lust of people as war loomed closer.
I watched reason and truth vanish from human sight.
I watched enemies demonise enemies so as to make it easier to kill them.
I watched war graves grow.
I watched unbelievable heroism.
I watched unbelievable barbarity.
Welcome to the reality of war.
The first seven lines are descriptive episodes from Hollywood 'entertainment'.
Tissue oozing onto soil.
Carpets of darkening blood.
Screams of agony.
Pleading for mothers.
Sleeves of uniforms with remnants of arm.
Half a foot in half a boot.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you find these words obscene.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you are disgusted with the images these words evoke.
Welcome to the reality of war.
And if you think this writer should have his words cencorsed.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Bullets which carry no personal hate.
Bullets which have no political viewpoint.
Bullets which were made, sold and profited on.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Minds shattered and wrecked by visions of Hell.
Lives twisted into years of nightmare and anguish.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Anyone who finds these images offensive and anyone who wishes to attack the imagery which they evoke,
Welcome to the reality of war.
In 1914 women gave white feathers to men, who had not signed up to fight, as a public display of their disgust for the cowardice of those men.
Those women never went within earshot of the battlefields.
Those women had no real concept of what war is really like.
They finally discovered the truth of war when broken, crippled, blinded, gassed, maimed, wrecked survivors returned home to a land fit for heroes.
They saw the horror that war really is.
Welcome to the reality of war.
Soldiers are the bravest of the brave.
I owe my life to men such as these.
Be proud of your soldiers.
They are making the sacrifices, not YOU.
Welcome to the reality of war.
I give my whole hearted support to our armed services.
I have nothing but contempt for the Donkeys who are sending them to die.
In ten years time when the wounded are still nursing their broken bodies and managing to survive on the pittance which the state gives them, who will be making money from speeches as they tour on the conference circuits of the 'civilised' world? The Donkeys.
I watched the Suez Crisis; I watched the Cuba Crisis; I watched the Berlin Wall and airlift Crisis; I watched many conflicts and many crises; I watched politicians come and go; I watched opposing armies claim G-d was on their side; I watched man do his worst to his fellow man.
I watched the blood lust of people as war loomed closer.
I watched reason and truth vanish from human sight.
I watched enemies demonise enemies so as to make it easier to kill them.
I watched war graves grow.
I watched unbelievable heroism.
I watched unbelievable barbarity.
Welcome to the reality of war.
The first seven lines are descriptive episodes from Hollywood 'entertainment'.
This war is going to happen no matter what you or I say. It was the 15th anniversary of the Kurdish village of Haladja being gassed a couple of days ago.
I agree with Linda there are worse things than death.
If biological and chemical weapons are used by Iraq in this conflict will any of the doubters out there change their minds on the validity of this war. After all Saddam has promised they have been destroyed.
It has not stopped the Kurds fleeing into the mountains to escape possible gassing. They obviously don't believe him.
You cannot deal with Saddam in a reasonable and logical way. He is neither of those things he is a dictator.
I agree with Linda there are worse things than death.
If biological and chemical weapons are used by Iraq in this conflict will any of the doubters out there change their minds on the validity of this war. After all Saddam has promised they have been destroyed.
It has not stopped the Kurds fleeing into the mountains to escape possible gassing. They obviously don't believe him.
You cannot deal with Saddam in a reasonable and logical way. He is neither of those things he is a dictator.
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
I agree with you Paula. This war is going to happen. I wanted to remind people that war is not some glorious heroic adventure in which the righteous will always triumph. War was, is and will be one horrible mess for all concerned. The die is now cast and I have stated that I am fully behind our armed forces. The decision has been made and we should all support those who are going into the maelstrom of war on our behalf. I do not agree with the decision but I fully back all efforts that are now going to be made.
We all want it to be over as quickly as possible and with as little loss of life as possible as well. Can I make it clear to anyone who now thinks that I have made a U-Turn, that this is now a national matter and I support my country, right or wrong. Its like supporting your family when you know they are not angels. Any parent will understand that point!
Paula, your point about Sadam using chemical and/or biological weapons is well made. He denies he has them. If he uses them he only confirms that which we fear. However, can I remind people that some weeks ago, the Bush administration publicly told Sadam that if any chemical/biological weapons were used by him on allied troops, then Bush would order a nuclear strike on Iraq. That is a matter of public record! And really does worry me. The consequences of such a scenario would engulf the whole of the middle east in something close to Armageddon. The ramifications can not be imagined.
The Allies must go in fast, hard and in an utterly overwhelming force, in order to prevent him from reacting in such a way, when he knows he has nothing to lose, and he will want to take as many with him as possible.
Sadam is a mad, serial killer, and he and his sons must be eliminated with all speed.
I didn't want this war. I've got this war. I want Sadam dead as soon as possible.
Given the possibility of chemical/biological/nuclear warfare in a region where Israel has a nuclear capability and will respond with vengence and revenge for the last Gulf War, we have to be aware of what the Arab states will do in return.
Sadam will make a martyr of himself if he can and we will reap the whirlwind in the west.
I just wish to G-d that some of his generals would have enough spine to put him out of our misery.
Tony Blair was right when he said that Sadam only listens when 250,000 troops are on his border. Sadam is a classic bully. He only knows the law of the fist. But I feel that we had to explore every sensible, diplomatic, economic and moral avenue before taking the gloves off. Its all a matter of timing. Could we have done more in more time? We will never know now, so lets get it done and over with. I don't hate the French, Germans and Russians for their stance. They are entitled to their own point of view just as other countries are. Human history is a thread of interaction between individuals and groups of individuals. Everybody doesn't agree on everything. That's the way it will always be.
I just want people to realise that because I don't agree with them, it doesn't mean I'm some commie-loving, left-wing terrorist, socialist anarchist who hates everything someone else believes in. I'm human for G-d's sake, just like you.
Open and free discussion is wonderful as long as those taking part don't lose sight of the fact that it is an open and free discussion. If you don't agree with me that's OK. But don't start calling names (you know who you are!!) and posturing behind some emotive historical diatribe, which only exposes your lack of intellectual reasoning in adult discussion.
Calling names is the last resort of the weaker argument. If that is your best point then you've got a hell of a lot to learn. (yes, you do know who you are!!)
I want this to be the fastest war in history.
For any readers who cannot understand my argument and position, then there is nothing more for me to say to you personally.
If I say G-d help us all, I remind you again that the people in Iraq are saying the same thing. So yes, G-d help us ALL.
We all want it to be over as quickly as possible and with as little loss of life as possible as well. Can I make it clear to anyone who now thinks that I have made a U-Turn, that this is now a national matter and I support my country, right or wrong. Its like supporting your family when you know they are not angels. Any parent will understand that point!
Paula, your point about Sadam using chemical and/or biological weapons is well made. He denies he has them. If he uses them he only confirms that which we fear. However, can I remind people that some weeks ago, the Bush administration publicly told Sadam that if any chemical/biological weapons were used by him on allied troops, then Bush would order a nuclear strike on Iraq. That is a matter of public record! And really does worry me. The consequences of such a scenario would engulf the whole of the middle east in something close to Armageddon. The ramifications can not be imagined.
The Allies must go in fast, hard and in an utterly overwhelming force, in order to prevent him from reacting in such a way, when he knows he has nothing to lose, and he will want to take as many with him as possible.
Sadam is a mad, serial killer, and he and his sons must be eliminated with all speed.
I didn't want this war. I've got this war. I want Sadam dead as soon as possible.
Given the possibility of chemical/biological/nuclear warfare in a region where Israel has a nuclear capability and will respond with vengence and revenge for the last Gulf War, we have to be aware of what the Arab states will do in return.
Sadam will make a martyr of himself if he can and we will reap the whirlwind in the west.
I just wish to G-d that some of his generals would have enough spine to put him out of our misery.
Tony Blair was right when he said that Sadam only listens when 250,000 troops are on his border. Sadam is a classic bully. He only knows the law of the fist. But I feel that we had to explore every sensible, diplomatic, economic and moral avenue before taking the gloves off. Its all a matter of timing. Could we have done more in more time? We will never know now, so lets get it done and over with. I don't hate the French, Germans and Russians for their stance. They are entitled to their own point of view just as other countries are. Human history is a thread of interaction between individuals and groups of individuals. Everybody doesn't agree on everything. That's the way it will always be.
I just want people to realise that because I don't agree with them, it doesn't mean I'm some commie-loving, left-wing terrorist, socialist anarchist who hates everything someone else believes in. I'm human for G-d's sake, just like you.
Open and free discussion is wonderful as long as those taking part don't lose sight of the fact that it is an open and free discussion. If you don't agree with me that's OK. But don't start calling names (you know who you are!!) and posturing behind some emotive historical diatribe, which only exposes your lack of intellectual reasoning in adult discussion.
Calling names is the last resort of the weaker argument. If that is your best point then you've got a hell of a lot to learn. (yes, you do know who you are!!)
I want this to be the fastest war in history.
For any readers who cannot understand my argument and position, then there is nothing more for me to say to you personally.
If I say G-d help us all, I remind you again that the people in Iraq are saying the same thing. So yes, G-d help us ALL.
-
tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
Paula, Byron,
I agree. This war will come.
And we can only hope that it's going to be the fastest war in history.
Still I think it was wrong to decide the way it has been done, but since the die really is cast, I can only pray that I was wrong.
My final message in this thread (to all it's participants) will be: let's not start into a verbal escalation, but always accept that we might disagree without losing our respect for each other.
Tom
I agree. This war will come.
And we can only hope that it's going to be the fastest war in history.
Still I think it was wrong to decide the way it has been done, but since the die really is cast, I can only pray that I was wrong.
My final message in this thread (to all it's participants) will be: let's not start into a verbal escalation, but always accept that we might disagree without losing our respect for each other.
Tom
eeey ~ I don't know whether or not you've noticed, however, I have not demeaned you for your views. Principle over personality, a longtime Christian concept, though I no longer subscribe to Christianity in my personal, spiritual life.
With regard to what Byron is saying and has said, it reenforces the position I took with regard to VietNam and the one I continue to take with regard to the soldiers now overseas in Kuwait and Iraq. I am against this war, and unlike Byron, I continue to be against this administration. I am not against the soldiers being sent to fight the war. I pray that they come home safely ~ as many as humanly possible. I pray that this war does not explode beyond all recognition, as I fear it may. I feel strongly that it may fully destabilize an already unstable area. I blame the soldiers themselves for nothing.
For whatever reason, there is an inordinately high number of soldiers coming out of Florida. Strange in that our retiree population is so high. The brother of one woman in our office got deployed last night [after being on alert to arrive at the base, within 2 hours max of a phone call, ready to board a plane]. The son of another is about to go. A brother-in-law of another will be going. A relative of another is already there ~ and for anyone wanting to know, pre-sweetened Kool-Aid is highly desired by the troops, and "Baby Wipes" are like gold [due to the sand covering all of them, including inside their clothing, and their inability to wash].
On NPR this morning, they described the extreme dust storm that had stirred up in Kuwait, and ongoing occurrence at this time of year. Baking-powder-fine dust is getting in their eyelids, up their noses, and inside their mouths. Visibility is reduced to 2 yards. These are conditions that locals have learned how to live with. They are completely foreign and new to these troops. These kinds of vulnerabilities turned well-trained soldiers into sitting ducks.
I don't know who listens to Rush Limbaugh and the other, ultra-conservative, inflammatory, talk-show hosts. However, I encourage anyone here to at least listen to NPR [National Public Radio], which includes segments from PRI [Public Radio International] for a more balanced perspective of this war. As I understand it, BBC also does more balanced reporting. You will be brought in touch with the human side of this conflict, far more than you ever will on standard stations. You will hear both sides. You will hear how Muslims in this country are already having to become preoccupied with self-protection, as "hate crimes" have already significantly increased in the past month against them, due to the nearing date of attack. You will also hear what I heard this morning ~ what just went into immediate effect ~ that every one [women and children included] seeking asylum in the U.S. from any country in that region will be detained throughout the course of this conflict. The INS is extremely upset regarding this, as certain assessments of validity are very quick and easy to determine. This means women and children seeking safety sitting in a cell for up to and over a year, possibly more, but definitely being confined to a prison setting, regardless of the amount of time.
Detaining anyone they wish to investigate as to possibly being a terrorist [regardless of country of origin] is now a legal, carte-blanche right by the authorities. This means a police state, with personal rights and freedoms disappearing quicker than we can even think of them. The ramifications of this war are beyond measure. These are only the mildest of them.
Byron ~ I appreciated very much the long poem you've written regarding war. It is the overall, macrocosm/microcosm view of Andrew's tribute to his father, with its personal specifics. I also continue to hold in high regard the dissenting countries, who in my opinion [akin to Michael Moore's, producer of movie "Bowling for Columbine," comments] have been friends who, like any true friend, have the courage to be truthful and honest with you, even if you don't like it.
Never in my life can I recall wanting more to be wrong about my ideas, opinions, and feelings. I cannot abandon them based on this want alone, unfortunately. They are what they are.....however, I will gladly admit my error, should this war really be based on humanitarian reasons and accomplish that goal, absent the greed-based agenda I see in my mind's eye.
I will be praying for the safety of our troops, the safety of Britain's and Australia's troops, and any other troops in the Allied forces. I will also be praying for all of the innocents [the old people, the women, the children, and the unwitting/unwilling soldiers fighting against the Allied forces ~ caught in this nightmare the same as "our" soldiers, the lower masses sent out to war on behalf of the high few]. I want this war to end as quickly and with as few casualties.....anywhere.....as possible.
~ Elizabeth
With regard to what Byron is saying and has said, it reenforces the position I took with regard to VietNam and the one I continue to take with regard to the soldiers now overseas in Kuwait and Iraq. I am against this war, and unlike Byron, I continue to be against this administration. I am not against the soldiers being sent to fight the war. I pray that they come home safely ~ as many as humanly possible. I pray that this war does not explode beyond all recognition, as I fear it may. I feel strongly that it may fully destabilize an already unstable area. I blame the soldiers themselves for nothing.
For whatever reason, there is an inordinately high number of soldiers coming out of Florida. Strange in that our retiree population is so high. The brother of one woman in our office got deployed last night [after being on alert to arrive at the base, within 2 hours max of a phone call, ready to board a plane]. The son of another is about to go. A brother-in-law of another will be going. A relative of another is already there ~ and for anyone wanting to know, pre-sweetened Kool-Aid is highly desired by the troops, and "Baby Wipes" are like gold [due to the sand covering all of them, including inside their clothing, and their inability to wash].
On NPR this morning, they described the extreme dust storm that had stirred up in Kuwait, and ongoing occurrence at this time of year. Baking-powder-fine dust is getting in their eyelids, up their noses, and inside their mouths. Visibility is reduced to 2 yards. These are conditions that locals have learned how to live with. They are completely foreign and new to these troops. These kinds of vulnerabilities turned well-trained soldiers into sitting ducks.
I don't know who listens to Rush Limbaugh and the other, ultra-conservative, inflammatory, talk-show hosts. However, I encourage anyone here to at least listen to NPR [National Public Radio], which includes segments from PRI [Public Radio International] for a more balanced perspective of this war. As I understand it, BBC also does more balanced reporting. You will be brought in touch with the human side of this conflict, far more than you ever will on standard stations. You will hear both sides. You will hear how Muslims in this country are already having to become preoccupied with self-protection, as "hate crimes" have already significantly increased in the past month against them, due to the nearing date of attack. You will also hear what I heard this morning ~ what just went into immediate effect ~ that every one [women and children included] seeking asylum in the U.S. from any country in that region will be detained throughout the course of this conflict. The INS is extremely upset regarding this, as certain assessments of validity are very quick and easy to determine. This means women and children seeking safety sitting in a cell for up to and over a year, possibly more, but definitely being confined to a prison setting, regardless of the amount of time.
Detaining anyone they wish to investigate as to possibly being a terrorist [regardless of country of origin] is now a legal, carte-blanche right by the authorities. This means a police state, with personal rights and freedoms disappearing quicker than we can even think of them. The ramifications of this war are beyond measure. These are only the mildest of them.
Byron ~ I appreciated very much the long poem you've written regarding war. It is the overall, macrocosm/microcosm view of Andrew's tribute to his father, with its personal specifics. I also continue to hold in high regard the dissenting countries, who in my opinion [akin to Michael Moore's, producer of movie "Bowling for Columbine," comments] have been friends who, like any true friend, have the courage to be truthful and honest with you, even if you don't like it.
Never in my life can I recall wanting more to be wrong about my ideas, opinions, and feelings. I cannot abandon them based on this want alone, unfortunately. They are what they are.....however, I will gladly admit my error, should this war really be based on humanitarian reasons and accomplish that goal, absent the greed-based agenda I see in my mind's eye.
I will be praying for the safety of our troops, the safety of Britain's and Australia's troops, and any other troops in the Allied forces. I will also be praying for all of the innocents [the old people, the women, the children, and the unwitting/unwilling soldiers fighting against the Allied forces ~ caught in this nightmare the same as "our" soldiers, the lower masses sent out to war on behalf of the high few]. I want this war to end as quickly and with as few casualties.....anywhere.....as possible.
~ Elizabeth
Last edited by lizzytysh on Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eeey, Thanks for doing some much needed research.
I have a problem with statistics being quoted here because they are not being held acountable as to reliability.
I also feel the discussion does no good other than generate hatred. But also I would like to say if you like go back and look who starts it every time. The rest of us are not suppose to respond because we believe differently I guess.
Another point I would like to make is Sept 11. How horrible an attack was that? Over three thousand innocent people died in less than a day. Killed by people who took airplanes with innocent people on board and used as weapons to kill thousands. War is worse than that? Saddam is not funding terrorists? That I do not believe.
Something should have been done long ago. To quote Elie Wiesel again" Where we see evil prevail, we must intervene"
I have a problem with statistics being quoted here because they are not being held acountable as to reliability.
I also feel the discussion does no good other than generate hatred. But also I would like to say if you like go back and look who starts it every time. The rest of us are not suppose to respond because we believe differently I guess.
Another point I would like to make is Sept 11. How horrible an attack was that? Over three thousand innocent people died in less than a day. Killed by people who took airplanes with innocent people on board and used as weapons to kill thousands. War is worse than that? Saddam is not funding terrorists? That I do not believe.
Something should have been done long ago. To quote Elie Wiesel again" Where we see evil prevail, we must intervene"
Linda