leonardcohenforum.com

hi soreloser (sorry for addressing you a loser, but it was your own choice),

i don't think it's odd that complete focus and meditation on the Self (Being!!!) is seen as the way to achieve this end(non-being). it's a drill common to self-hypnoses in the west and medditation in the east: if you're trying to eliminate a sound from outside, which is interupting with your concentration, you have to focus whole of your attention to the same sound, and then, after some time, the sound miracously dissapears. The same way; if you're trying hard to fall asleep, you wont be able to do so until you forget that you have to rest. Or, if you have pains, you can eliminate them if you concentrate on them, and make them even harder in your mind... There are dozens of drills for sportsmen of the same way... and Buddhism, especialy Zen, is all about DRILLs.

i know you know all this, but i figured this could add more weight to your post.

JURICA

Hello, Jurica


I don't mind at all...call me anything you like!


I take your point. But the mechanics of the operation are not really what I was trying to get at. I don't think I expressed myself very clearly there. The word "odd" was a bad choice.

The wish for annihilation of Self has to, I think, involve some process of self-loathing. (Please Lizzytysh, don't go ballistic...I'm speaking philosophically here). But the fact that you would then fixate on that Self seems a little....well....self-absorbed.




SL


P.S. Of course, there are other factors in play here.

Hi SL,
I figured you were speaking philosophically [vs. suicide] ~ however, it still seems your interpretation of the word "Self" is what may be problematical here. If you think in terms of "Ego" as a substitute, the self-loathing wouldn't enter in. It's difficult to explain how it seems we're on different tracks here, but it seems semantics and definition-of-terms are really entering in and mucking up the works. Not sure how to untangle it all, either
~Lizzytysh

Some loathe all aspects of self which can be annihilated and believe that nothing that is real can be destroyed.

Dear Lizzytysh,

Substituting "ego" for "self" does not alter the argument. I'm not talking about trying to become a kinder, gentler ME, who goes around helping little old ladies get across the cosmos. I'm talking about the desire for annihilation...the obliteration of the body and soul...the turning from the concept of a Personal Deity (I AM, THAT I AM) to an Impersonal Force.


SL

Soreloser...............a conversion to G-dhead, a very difficult transition from these planes.
It is possible read what is a saint from LC
the spirit would have to drive this transition and it may not be evolved enough still
best wishes on achieving this...................Georges

hey all,
i started reading the posts on this forum,and got computer-dizzyness.
can someone do me a large favor and make a quick synopsis? i read the poem no middleman and it makes lots of sense to me.i read the last few posts about the idea of 'self nulifaction".the way i've always understood it was not to dwell on your "self" for this that you dwell on may not be your true self.it can be the product of your surroundings,upbringing etc...in addition to the "who by fire"prayer on the holiest day of the year there is a prayer called "all my vows" which is sung with great emotional emphasis.
the reason for this is the deeper meaning of the prayer.= i will anul all my vows,all the preconceptions of self which we would make a vow on that "this is the true me" and uncover the layers to find the true you.they say when one does this they come face to face with G-d.that said the self nulifaction really is a greater awareness of self.this causes ultimate humility.
saluté
elazar

elazar wrote:hey all,
i started reading the posts on this forum,and got computer-dizzyness.
can someone do me a large favor and make a quick synopsis? saluté
elazar

Here is your synopsis, elazar

NO MIDDLEMAN


I never tried to see your face,
Nor did I want to know
The details of some lower place
Where I would have to go.

But love is strong as gravity,
And everyone must fall.
At first it’s from the apple tree,
And then the Western Wall.

Seriously :

I finally have some kind (but not definitive) opinion about those lines. Poem? The beginning of a song? This is the same thing for the poetry always goes with music with Cohen. And since when he does thing like others do? Don't try to prisoner him in some conventional forms of poetry of all kinds. Or if you try, good luck.


To my eyes this is the expression of the fatalism experienced by Cohen all his life. The feeling that he had no choice but to go where he was "told" to go, this man of liberty. This is another reportage of an ordinary human journey made by an extraordinary artist. We are all submit the this force that made the world go round, the evolution. We are going with the flow or we sink (beneath our wisdom?).


Regarding the games with the selves, I fell for C.G. Jung, years ago : here is a link which the subject is both religions and Jung's theory of individuation process. But I warn you, the text is long, you may feel computer-dizzy

All the religions, arts and sciences are the branches of the same tree. All its aspirations are directed towards the ennoblement of the life of humanity to raise it out of the sphere of the simple physical existence and to guide the individual towards Freedom. - Albert Einstein

http://www.cgjungpage.org/fordhamindiv.html

thank you lots gaia,
have you read viktor e. frankl at all? he has some amazing books.~ "mans search for meaning"and "the unconscience G-d" and has a formula called logotherapy.logo-meaning in latin.he deals alot with these issues.he says
"it is a tenet of logotherapy that the humaness of man is grounded in his sense of responsibility. man is responsible for fulfilling the meaning of his life.being human means responding to life situations,replying to the questions they ask.being human means answering these calls-but who is calling?to whom is man responding?these questions cannot be answered by logotherapy...logothereapy can only heighten the innate awareness of the responsibility including being responsible for one's answer to how to interpret his life,that is to say,whether along the lines of theism or atheism"
this reminds me of lennies question ~ "and who shall i say is calling"
viktors books are fascinating.
ok touché on the computer dizzyness
saluté
elazar

Elazar :

Viktor E. Frankl, I never heard about him, but I will give a look. Thanks for sharing this.

Saluté!

i read through the entire forum ,bit by bit. it was very"involving".i liked janems midrashas and all the poetic posturing by andrew and all etc..i agree with i think lizzy who said the lower places as hell.i think this might be a referance ,a abhorance to the classic reward-punishment relationship with G-d.i think the apple tree is the famous tree of knowledge that adam and eve took of the fruits and thereby got banished from the garden of eden i.e. G-ds imediate presence.and that made room for this punishment reward relationship.but the love that G-d has for us and vice versa is still strong and over shadows or "falls" over this with the power of gravity.and hence the western wall,the last remaining remnant of a glorious temple that was destoyed by the romans some 2000 years ago.this temple was a symbol of the unshakable love between G-d and man.
just a thought,
saluté´
elazar

i saw a phenom.web site that compiles many great free thinkers work.
http://www.collectedthoughts.com
saluté
elaza

i just finished reading Man's Search for Meaning and did a google search for Logotherapy which lead me back to the Leonard Cohen Forum.

Epitaph...and perhaps it's erebus.
First it sounds meaningless. Then you try to work it out....

He never wanted to see God's face /heaven/ or lower place /hell/.
Never wanted manic depression, emotional imbalance, huge ups and downs....
he only wanted some common sense to become a middleman, to obey the rules and live in comfort.

But love, attractions and desire gets us pretty imbalanced, full of fear, anxiety, anguish, pride etc...
That's why we are not able to behave sensibly and obey the rules. So we sin. We sin *against each other in matters of love/human relationship /sexuality (and fall from apple tree)
*against God/ religion ( and fall from - especially those who are of Jewish religion - western wall)

Love disables our attempts to become a middleman.

The Burning Bush was the way God has demonstrated his presence to Moses.
Afterwards, God told him that he is to become a prophet and a leader.
Moses didn't appreaciate it very much, he wanted to become a middleman...
But than he had to accept the God's choise: no middleman.

Maybe its completely different or forever completely open to interpretation.
But the rebus is still inviting.

Iveta

No Middleman

I never tried to see your face,
Nor did I want to know
The details of some lower place
Where I would have to go.

But love is strong as gravity,
And everyone must fall.
At first it’s from the apple tree,
And then the Western Wall.


Love leads to apostasy.