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Miranda said the poetry section was full of terrible writing. And she was right. Most of the poetry IS "sooooooo bad". Notice I said "most" not "all".

She didn't say "Stop the madness, keep the poets from writing." No, she gave her opinion on the quality of the poetry. And you couldn't wait to pounce on her, Lizzytysh. The avenging angel that you are.

If you have any doubts as to the quality of the poetry, look at George(s) entries here on this thread. He's got the Owl throwing himself on a cocktail stick. LOL

George Gordon ~

I stand on and behind my "pounce," a stand I took on a person's assuming the role of arbiter, regarding all that is good and bad in the world of poetic writing, without offering [or when asked for it, coming up with] a single detail, shred of evidence, or explanation, directed toward specific justification of carte-blanche slagging of people, many of whom have very effectively taken the risk of vulnerability and sharing their hearts with others, through their writing. Writing is a process. One is not instantly an expert. As stated previously by me, the section is for poetry written by members of this forum, not for "published poets only." In fact, some are published, and others have written excellent poetry, even though they are not.

I notice that you could not resist still another slag directed toward both me and Georges ~ even in your presumed "defense" of Miranda. I also notice that you did not answer as to why you didn't plead with her not to leave at the time. I further notice that the only time you emerge is when you say still one more negative thing about someone.

Since you've chosen to dive into that mucky water again and drag up bones, I will at least hose them off and put a little meat on them, by availing others of some of the specifics of what you and I are speaking:

To Peter D --

"I think you misunderstood Linda and me. (Perhaps deliberately.) We are not scared or bothered by "certain" words. It's just that the so-called "poetry" is sooooooooooooo bad. Reading the Poetry Forum is like drowning in molasses. Too much "feeling" and very little "sense." Or the subject matter doesn't rise to the level of being worth the bother...scatalogical verse I can get from my five-year-old.

Miranda"

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And, upon my own inquiry of:

"Hello Miranda,

I'm just really curious. Are you a poet, a publisher, a professor, a professional critic, or simply the panacean arbiter of worth for this plane of expression ?

Partisian arrogance remains a possibility .

~Elizabeth"

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To which, she responded:

"Sorry, Lizzytysh,

I'm not a poet, a publisher, a professor or a professional critic. I'm only a Reader. And arrogance has nothing to do with being able to judge good poetry from bad poetry. Why shouldn't there be a standard for poetry? There is for everything else in life. Do you want a good doctor or a quack? When you go to your auto mechanic don't you want him to fix your car or is slip-shod work acceptable to you? Why should writers (especially poets) be let off the hook simply because of what they do?


I think we spend so much time reading bad poetry we don't even know what good writing is anymore.

(And I don't know what partisan has got to do with my posts. )

Miranda"

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To which I responded [in brief part only]:

"Get a clue as you have, Miranda? Did you sign up for and ace Reader 101, 102, and 103? Through whose credentials did you pass? Nor do I recall saying that you said these were terrible people. I have plenty words accessible through my own mouth, Miranda....I surely don't need you to put any there.

When people take unwarranted stances of judgmentalism regarding the personal works of others it becomes "soooooooooo" easy to be deemed pompous. As they put their works out there to receive your judgement, why would you be so surprized to receive mine. The only thing you've offered is a personal judgement ~ not even graced by analysis, support, or development. Hence, please contain your surprize regarding my "anger" with what I consider to be your audacity. Why not include some of your own poetry or writing for public consumption and ridicule? So far, your thinking process isn't holding up. In that that's all you've given me in this public arena, it's all I have to comment upon......"

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Her response:

"Dear Lizzytysh,

I don't understand your anger towards me. I didn't say these were terrible people. I said their writing was terrible. You on the other hand, have informed everyone that I am arrogant, pompous, presumptuous, and judgmental.

And I not trying to keep anyone from posting their work. And I certainly do not want to vet them. I think that anyone who puts their "poetry" out on the internet for others to read had better be able to take the lumps as well as the praise.

Miranda

P.S. Yeah, I do think "all poets, would-be poets and wannabe poets" should "sign up and ace Poetry 101, 102, and 103." Maybe they would get a clue."

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After others entered in with their comments, Miranda had to say:

"For crying out loud. Would everyone please go back and read my original post on this thread. I said you all were "interesting!" You just can't write poetry. (With the exception of Andrew McG.) I also said I only go to the poetry section "occasionally." I couldn't stomach a steady diet of it. So I'm not lurking in the shadows ready to pounce on you. Post away.

Miranda"

[An interesting distinction for her to make regarding Andrew, given her credentials....of course, she already knew that he had been bestowed a great honour, so crediting her with that level of inclusion/exclusion discernment is impossible. A point I additionally made at the time is that even being published is not the final determinant of excellence, though it is/can be a reenforcement and confirmation.]

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There's plenty more on that thread, related to this, but I'm not about to quote the whole, dang thing. However, as I said, your "avenging angel" moniker is without basis. I did, and will continue to, however, continue to advocate for the right of people to post ~ particularly from the heart realm ~ without having to expect verbal assault, in the general sections and threads to boot.

~ Elizabeth

While you were wading through the murky waters I noticed that you DID NOT quote Miranda's original post. So I shall do it for you. It is as follows:

"I post for many reasons but mainly to get info. I enjoy this forum except for the poetry section. Occasionally, I'll go to that section but I'm usually disappointed that LC fans who seem to be such interesting people are such terrible writers. "

What is so horrible about that post?

Her second post was in response to Peter Danielsen and in it she states her reasons for thinking the poems are "terrible". Which reasons, of course, you refuse to acknowledge Miranda making. Preferring instead to pig-headedly keep demanding if Miranda is the "panacean arbiter of worth for this plane of expression..."

Oh, I forgot, the panacean arbiter of worth on the Message Board is YOUR job. It seems it's O.K. for you to call someone "pompous" but let someone else try and it's off with their heads.

I didn't plead with Miranda to stay. I thought she showed good sense in kissing off the "essence of the board". And I don't plead with Witty Owl to return either. That's his business.

And come on Lizzy, George(s) two poems have got everybody howling.

Doctors have certain patients who they class as 'Heart Sink Patients'. Its very simple to explain. When the doctor asks for their next patient to come into their surgery room and they look up to see who it is, their heart sinks at the sight of the patient, because they know the patient is one of those, who does nothing but moan every time they come into the room. They make no attempt to be positive, polite, or even put a brave face on their situation.
I'll let you into a secret. There are some people who post in this forum, who, when their given names appear on the left of my computer screen, make my heart sink. I know I'm going to read negative, non-positive, moans about other people without any attempt at trying to be positive, constructive, or even entertaining for the rest of us. If you can't say something nice, then for G-d's sake, shut up. I'm getting really p****d off with some of you.
Try counting your blessings once in a while. LC went through angst, anguish, trial and tribulation to produce 'heart rending' material, which we all acknowledge as true literary worth. Some of you are just a bunch of moaning, whyngeing carpers, who do yourselves no favours by sniping from behind your keyboards.
Get up.
Go outside.
NOW.
Look up to the stars, moon, sky, clouds and creatures winging overhead.
And thank G-d for being alive.
The graveyards are full of moaning complainers who'd love to be where we are right now.
I feel such a lot better for writing that.
But honestly, you'll all drive people away if you keep this up.
If you don't like what I've written, then at least go and give your family a smile from me. Because they must be fed up with your moaning.

George Gordon ~

You're right, I did not quote the entire thread, as I stated. I picked up on it at the approximate point that you chose for slinging mud from the bone.

Her reasons for posting are hers [which was in response to the thread's poll, "Why Do You Post," one of the options given in the poll, of course, being, "To annoy Lizzytysh" ~ the only person on the Forum mentioned]. Her reasons for posting are fine, but why she felt compelled to go beyond that to declare that she only "Occasionally" goes to the poetry section, where she is "usually disappointed that LC fans who seem [italics mine] to be such interesting people are such terrible writers " did cause curiosity in me. It was curious to me that she was making such a blanket statement based on only her occasional statement. It was curious to me that "interesting" people should come part-and-parcel with the expectation of being a good/a great writer. The sad-face emoticon indicated that the writers in the poetry section somehow owed it to her to keep her happy with their excellent writing, and if not, she would show them just how disappointed she was in them?

Even so, I did not respond to that post until 12 posts later, after other people [including me] had posted in various ways [this would constitute "And you couldn't wait to pounce on her, Lizzytysh"?] ~ and then she, in response to a post by Peter D., made the [bold included, which I forgot to include when I copy-and-pasted in my previous post] "sooooooooooooo bad" statement regarding the "so-called 'poetry'," which prompted me to respond asking her if she was "a poet, a publisher, a professor, a professional critic...." You may not understand why her comments would raise such curiosity in me, but I suspect there are some who do, then and now. Regardless, I asked the question, at the time, only for myself.

Already being aware of all of the poems, from frequent and regular, if not daily visits, I failed to recognize what you call "reasons," which lacked examples ~ this being what people do when they discuss literary offerings; they give examples with their labeling, if "label" they must.

So, the below quotes did not rise to the level of "reasons" with me, but rather as only slagging swipes with a broad brush, unsupported by examples.
(1) Reading the Poetry Forum is like drowning in molasses.
(2) Too much "feeling" and very little "sense"
(3) The subject matter doesn't rise to the level of being worth the bother...scatalogical verse I can get from my five-year-old

As any one in one of the above fields [that I questioned her as perhaps being in], do accompany their criticisms, with examples, it was not unreasonable to ask from what level of qualification was she slinging such insults.

Finally, I did not call her pompous, but did make the statement that her manner can give the impression of being pompous, and directly attached an example, as well, with "When people take unwarranted stances of judgmentalism regarding the personal works of others it becomes "soooooooooo" easy to be deemed pompous [italics mine]." It is still a measure further to simply call someone a name, the name you're alluding to being "pompous ass," with no stated or implied provocation, or justification with example[s], whatsoever.

If she kissed off, for whatever reason, her declared main purpose "to get info" can still be accomplished on the main area of the site, so she made a personal choice to leave. Witty also made a personal choice to leave, which I have acknowledged its being. However, I chose to plead with him not to do so, the same choice that you had with Miranda. I did not question why you didn't do it with Miranda, until you implied that because some of us did so with Witty Owl, we should have[?] with Miranda and cited the alleged "abuse heaped on her" ~ and paint an image of us "falling on" our "swords" and calling it a "circus."

Then, you cite two ditties placed here by Georges in response to this whole thing as examples that will conclusively address, "If you have any doubts as to the quality of the poetry, look at George(s) entries here on this thread [italics mine]."

~ Elizabeth

You took the words write off my keyboard, Byron There's a none too subtle difference between debate and insult, but several people here seem to have difficulty perceiving it.

Byron,

I am not complaining. I am stating my opinion. So what if I disagree with Lizzytysh's mis-interpretation of posts. Hardly a reason to become heart sick. In fact, you should be grateful. All the wrangling affords you the opportunity to become sanctimonious.

Right on George!

Never care for the subtleties between debate and insult. Or those between "makes my heart sink" and "becoming heart sick". Or those between defense and ruthless attack. State your opinion, and let others state theirs.

And beware of becoming sanctimonious yourself.

And, of course, give a smile to your family from me as well.

Tom

Just an add-on, George...

Miranda left before I came to the forum. Had I been around, well maybe I had told her something in the line of: "I didn't like the posts you submitted, and I never shared most of your opinions - but please don't leave. Hey - that's no way to say good-bye."

Tom

George Gordon. "Heart sink" is a feeling. An emotional response to an ongoing personal situation. I told you all of HOW I was feeling. And for that, George Gordon's name appeared in the top left of my screen and once again, my heart sank. So, no change there then? Lighten up; chill out; take stock of your existence; be grateful, for tomorrow, who knows what is in store for each of us?
I have had to look at my own mortality several times in the last couple of years and for my life "I am grateful".

George gordon from Scotland, Greece, my ditties were simply an attempt to lighten the whole debate.
Were you in love with Miranda?
Georges

George Gordon. I'll let you into a personal secret of mine. When my children were small, I quietly asked myself a question every day. "Have I hugged my kids today?"
That, is the emotional and internalised feeling which I am alluding to. I am not questioning the content of the postings. I am asking people to consider the temperate nature of their postings. Surely that is not too difficult to understand? And please read my postings properly before 'firing off' a reply, which is based on an erroneous reading.
Despite any probable acrimonious (bitter in manner or temper) reply to this, Byron does send his genuine, best regards.

Hooooooooooooot.
Discussions have become quite lively in my absence much to my surprise! I feel a little humbled and heartened at the reactions by some kindly members to my departure. I thank those members who so earnestly encouraged my return to the dialogue. Indeed I was offended(though some do not understand why) and I have given some thought to the insult and my reaction. Partisan/Poetry Cop had no right to assert that I am a "pompous ass". This individual does not know me by any measure bar a few written postings at these forums. Some of those postings are simply playing the devil's advocate for the sake of dialogue. Passing out insults is not an exercise in free speech, it is just plain bad manners. [Incidently, Leonard holds good manners in high regard] I do not mind being slagged as one of the lousy poets for this is merely an opinion of the writing and the writers as a collective. Unfounded personal attacks are another matter and it should come as no surprise if those under attack take exception.
On reflection I am inclined to think the "pompous ass" remark says more about the one who delivers that judgement and seems to indicate an inflated ego of the one who delivers the insult. I know I have an assertive ego as my writing may indicate. As an artist, this goes with the territory. A lively ego is essential to the function of any artist. An artist with no ego is no artist at all! Any comments I have to make about the poetry can be found in that particular forum. Postings from this Owl may be less frequent for a time but I shall keep in touch. Meanwhile I have unwell parents to care for, vines to prune and a music business to attend to.

Regards,

Witty Owl.

We await your droppings, oh witty-one.

Witty Owl -

just for the eyes and ears of those who do not visit the Poetry Section I repeat:

Welcome back, Witty

I disagree with you on one minor issue, though: To my mind the "pompous ass" remark doesn't "indicate an inflated ego of the one who delivers the insult", but rather the vain attempt to overcompensate a deflated one...

Tom

PS: Sad to hear about the unwell parents. May they get better soon. And may both the vineyard and the music business be fruitful. And may all this leave you some time to spend with us... Tom