Seeing as how politics is going on strong as ever on this board by some, I have to say I am over joyed with our present administration finally doing something to end the deaths of innocent unborn children by partial birth abortion. More lives are lost through abortion than war.
And also, the latest polls show that the 70 % of the American people are behind our President in the Iraq issue.
I would very much like to know LC's opinion on both issues.
hell bent on war
I read or heard an old interview with LC recently in which he was asked for his take on pacifism. He replied that it was a luxury that could only be afforded by those in a position of armed security, and that as a member of a small nation which had historically been subject to much oppression he had no time for it.
Of course, this does not necessarily have any bearing on what his opinion of the current situation might be.
Of course, this does not necessarily have any bearing on what his opinion of the current situation might be.
Linda
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
Dear Linda,
It must give you comfort to have a pro-life (anti-abortion) stance while applauding America's finest (average age 19?) as they are poised to assault Iraq with weapons of mass democracy.
It must also cause you some concern: why are there only "70% of the American (does that mean the U.S.A.?) people behind our President in the Iraq issue"? What a treacherous 30% !
Don't worry, Linda; after the regime change in Iraq, I'm sure the polls will give "our present administration" (sic) 100% approval to attack....France, Germany...those ungrateful old-European nations who have obviously forgotten what a decent invasion was all about.
This war will do NOTHING in the so-called fight against terrorism.
On the contrary, it will give birth to a generation "hell-bent" on revenge.
Terrorism, by any definition, is fuelled by a sense of injustice, whether real or perceived. The antidote to terrorism is justice, not the American (U.S.A.?) way of life, at least as defined by "our present administration".
Linda, I will be 53 years old on June 29th, and have never felt so scared since the "Cuban missile crisis" in 1960-61. Will your "present administration" blast North Korea into democracy, or will the cheque-book rule again?
Andrew.
It must give you comfort to have a pro-life (anti-abortion) stance while applauding America's finest (average age 19?) as they are poised to assault Iraq with weapons of mass democracy.
It must also cause you some concern: why are there only "70% of the American (does that mean the U.S.A.?) people behind our President in the Iraq issue"? What a treacherous 30% !
Don't worry, Linda; after the regime change in Iraq, I'm sure the polls will give "our present administration" (sic) 100% approval to attack....France, Germany...those ungrateful old-European nations who have obviously forgotten what a decent invasion was all about.
This war will do NOTHING in the so-called fight against terrorism.
On the contrary, it will give birth to a generation "hell-bent" on revenge.
Terrorism, by any definition, is fuelled by a sense of injustice, whether real or perceived. The antidote to terrorism is justice, not the American (U.S.A.?) way of life, at least as defined by "our present administration".
Linda, I will be 53 years old on June 29th, and have never felt so scared since the "Cuban missile crisis" in 1960-61. Will your "present administration" blast North Korea into democracy, or will the cheque-book rule again?
Andrew.
I was one of the recipients of this e-mail from Kathy [who used to post some poetry here]. I just liked the way it felt and thought I'd share it. I stayed home last night and burned 12 candles in my windows and read poetry, rather than go to a peace vigil at someone else's house. I know exactly how Kathy felt with her last night's experience.
"Subject: 'Last night I had the strangest dream....'
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:18:04 -0500
Hi Friends,
Tonight I did not have a dream. It was real. As I
was driving through
Acton Center to go get milk, I saw hundreds of people
standing around the
common with candles and peace signs. I pulled into the
parking lot behind
the Town Hall and Library and joined them. A remnant
of the old days. It was
beautiful. Most of the people were silent. Then
someone would start singing,
"All we are saying is give peace a chance." There were
people from many
ethnic groups, young and old and all in between.
People brought their small
children and babies, too. Some people honked in
support as they drove by. A
few in pickup trucks yelled something not so nice.
They must be very afraid,
if they have to yell at peaceful people with candles.
When it was over, I talked with a few friends who
were there and then
went home. I felt so much better, just knowing that
people all over the
world, starting in Australia and circling the globe
were lighting candles
for peace that night just like us. (Actually, I did
not have a candle, but I
used my tiny purse flashlight.) No matter what happens
next, it is good to
know that many of us are not cowed by an
administration that can only see
its own way and resorts to name-calling and scare
tactics to try to keep
people in line. (Not to mention shamelessly trying to
bribe other
countries.)
So, I wish peace for each and everyone in the world
tonight. If America
goes to war, then our peace efforts will be needed all
the more. Pray for
peace. Work for peace. Speak out for peace. May peace
be with you.
Love and hugs, Kathy"
"Subject: 'Last night I had the strangest dream....'
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:18:04 -0500
Hi Friends,
Tonight I did not have a dream. It was real. As I
was driving through
Acton Center to go get milk, I saw hundreds of people
standing around the
common with candles and peace signs. I pulled into the
parking lot behind
the Town Hall and Library and joined them. A remnant
of the old days. It was
beautiful. Most of the people were silent. Then
someone would start singing,
"All we are saying is give peace a chance." There were
people from many
ethnic groups, young and old and all in between.
People brought their small
children and babies, too. Some people honked in
support as they drove by. A
few in pickup trucks yelled something not so nice.
They must be very afraid,
if they have to yell at peaceful people with candles.
When it was over, I talked with a few friends who
were there and then
went home. I felt so much better, just knowing that
people all over the
world, starting in Australia and circling the globe
were lighting candles
for peace that night just like us. (Actually, I did
not have a candle, but I
used my tiny purse flashlight.) No matter what happens
next, it is good to
know that many of us are not cowed by an
administration that can only see
its own way and resorts to name-calling and scare
tactics to try to keep
people in line. (Not to mention shamelessly trying to
bribe other
countries.)
So, I wish peace for each and everyone in the world
tonight. If America
goes to war, then our peace efforts will be needed all
the more. Pray for
peace. Work for peace. Speak out for peace. May peace
be with you.
Love and hugs, Kathy"
-
Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:05 am
This is from the London Times On-Line.
See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd
“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.
See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd
“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.
Based on everything that Andrew McGeever has said above, I hope that you, Linda, and all other Americans are prepared/braced for what will be prompted here by the upcoming attack....and won't be shocked by its happening. Whether as an excuse for terrorist sleeper cells to attack America and other countries, on the premise or reality of supporting Iraqis and Muslims; or by anti-American Iraqis already here/anywhere; or by Saddam's supporters coming in anywhere by hook or by crook; or by a far-reaching Jihad [by many who believe it's not about oil but about a religious war on Islam] ~ however, it all gets rationalized or played out, absent unnecessary rationalization ~ not seeing direct results of it here and elsewhere will be nothing, NOTHING short of a miracle. Debating this given WAR has become too late. Prayer is desperately needed for all the innocents worldwide . May G..d be with us ALL 
.
~ Elizabeth
.~ Elizabeth
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George.Wright
- Posts: 1874
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:37 pm
- Location: Bangor, N.Ireland
I have thought and thought about this I have been on one side of the fence or another then straggled it.
Sore Losers post has polarised my thinking and I am behind the war. If I were being subjected to the tortures which are in that articles I would be praying for salvation.
I hope it is a quick war and I hope too many innocents don't lose their lives.
Sore Losers post has polarised my thinking and I am behind the war. If I were being subjected to the tortures which are in that articles I would be praying for salvation.
I hope it is a quick war and I hope too many innocents don't lose their lives.
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
Truly horrible, I agree, Paula. And something should be done about that, I guess.
But if we wanted to send armies to every country where tortures like that happen, we'd have to declare war on scores of countries, including some NATO members.
I'd say, war should be declared on torture. But we should start keeping friends from torturing people, or even stop using antediluvian methods like this ourselves.
When on the event of a recent arrest a US official said that "all imaginable ways" will be used to get information from the arrested (meaning: including torture!) he didn't set a glorious example.
And do you really believe that whoever comes after Saddam when the war is over will be better in this respect? Was any of our puppet dictators? After all we didn't care for his torturing as long as he was our friend, as long as he supported us, and we supported him.
Tom
But if we wanted to send armies to every country where tortures like that happen, we'd have to declare war on scores of countries, including some NATO members.
I'd say, war should be declared on torture. But we should start keeping friends from torturing people, or even stop using antediluvian methods like this ourselves.
When on the event of a recent arrest a US official said that "all imaginable ways" will be used to get information from the arrested (meaning: including torture!) he didn't set a glorious example.
And do you really believe that whoever comes after Saddam when the war is over will be better in this respect? Was any of our puppet dictators? After all we didn't care for his torturing as long as he was our friend, as long as he supported us, and we supported him.
Tom
Elie Wiesel's statement, "...to remain silent and indifferent is the greatest sin of all..."stands as a succinct summary of his views on life and serves as the driving force of his work. Wiesel is the author of 36 works dealing with Judaism, the Holocaust, and the moral responsibility of all people to fight hatred, racism and genocide
Elie Wiesel is a holocaust survivor, in 1986 he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
Sunday I happen to catch an interview of him on the Fox News Channel, he supports the President and the war on Saddam Hussein. To quote him “Where we see evil prevail, we must intervene.” I would encourage you to read his biography and also the book “Night” that we do not forget what happened during the holocaust and I can’t help but wonder if that could not have been prevented if Hitler had been stopped sooner.
Andrew Yes, lives of nineteen year olds are most likely going to be lost. But they do have a say about it don’t they, verses an unborn fetus. We do not have a draft. These are brave women and men who believe in fighting for freedom and defending our country. I am proud of everyone of them and so grateful and thankful for everyone of them and do not want to see a single one of them die or anyone else in the world for that matter, not even Saddam Hussein, of whom I would like to see a change of heart. Everyone agrees he is evil, how can you not want to stop him? He would kill all of us and any of you in a heart beat. I am totally convinced after Sept 11 that we are going to be attacked again and again and that Saddam Hussein is involved.
I am behind my President 100 % right now.
Please read what Elie Wiesel has to say
Elie Wiesel is a holocaust survivor, in 1986 he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
Sunday I happen to catch an interview of him on the Fox News Channel, he supports the President and the war on Saddam Hussein. To quote him “Where we see evil prevail, we must intervene.” I would encourage you to read his biography and also the book “Night” that we do not forget what happened during the holocaust and I can’t help but wonder if that could not have been prevented if Hitler had been stopped sooner.
Andrew Yes, lives of nineteen year olds are most likely going to be lost. But they do have a say about it don’t they, verses an unborn fetus. We do not have a draft. These are brave women and men who believe in fighting for freedom and defending our country. I am proud of everyone of them and so grateful and thankful for everyone of them and do not want to see a single one of them die or anyone else in the world for that matter, not even Saddam Hussein, of whom I would like to see a change of heart. Everyone agrees he is evil, how can you not want to stop him? He would kill all of us and any of you in a heart beat. I am totally convinced after Sept 11 that we are going to be attacked again and again and that Saddam Hussein is involved.
I am behind my President 100 % right now.
Please read what Elie Wiesel has to say
Linda
I am not discrediting the info supplied by Sore Loser, nor am I embracing it. The power of propaganda and not knowing who's-who testifying to its truth enters in here. Neither the U.S. nor Britain is beyond conjuring this level of propaganda. NOT saying that it is, necessarily. The journalist, Pearl, thought he knew who he was dealing with for a close-up story, until he was kidnapped and made aware of their intent to execute him. One would believe the shredder by Saddam, etc. ~ yet balk at believing the bulldozer by the U.S., both reportedly documented. Being against what is occurring there, within the boundaries of Iraq [also reportedly against the non-Saddam factions ~of which there are a number within Iraq] and his allegedly not doing these kinds of things to his "own" people]. Tortures have been going on inside of many countries [some perpetrated by the U.S. ~ elsewhere], where the U.S. turns a blind eye....due to lack of personal investment in that country. To be against the war in Iraq is no synonymous with being for torture. The things described in Sore Loser's post are unspeakably and unimaginably heinous. I feel horribly for those who suffered and died if these are truthful accounts.
Just get ready for the body bags. They'll be coming from all directions. Interesting that it's been raised to Code Orange in the U.S. again ~ despite this war supposedly being the "solution" to terrorism. And the police are complaining that the government is not giving them enough information or money for what is being expected of them to protect citizens. This does not come as a surprize. Guess we'll call it collateral damage here [and again, elsewhere], as well, with Bush's "deepest regrets."
Just get ready for the body bags. They'll be coming from all directions. Interesting that it's been raised to Code Orange in the U.S. again ~ despite this war supposedly being the "solution" to terrorism. And the police are complaining that the government is not giving them enough information or money for what is being expected of them to protect citizens. This does not come as a surprize. Guess we'll call it collateral damage here [and again, elsewhere], as well, with Bush's "deepest regrets."
From all I have heard over the years of the horror inflicted on his own people by Saddam Hussein, I do not discredit sore loser's info in the least.
With the freedom that we have had in this country I very much believe we should have code red at this time instead of orange. I believe we have enough terrorist living among us that anything is possible right now. But we can not let a dictator have his way out of fear. War itself is not the solution to terrorism Lizzytysh but taking Saddam out of power right now is, terror for us or anywhere is not going to end until that happens, and even then the war on terrorism will go on for generations.
I feel better knowing I have a President who has the American people's safety and interest at heart, verses popularity around the world. Also a big thanks to the UK and Spain for standing with us. The outcome will be interesting, but one thing I know having faith in God, is that there are worse things than death.
With the freedom that we have had in this country I very much believe we should have code red at this time instead of orange. I believe we have enough terrorist living among us that anything is possible right now. But we can not let a dictator have his way out of fear. War itself is not the solution to terrorism Lizzytysh but taking Saddam out of power right now is, terror for us or anywhere is not going to end until that happens, and even then the war on terrorism will go on for generations.
I feel better knowing I have a President who has the American people's safety and interest at heart, verses popularity around the world. Also a big thanks to the UK and Spain for standing with us. The outcome will be interesting, but one thing I know having faith in God, is that there are worse things than death.
Linda
I had not read through them before now. I would have to question the validity of all those statistics for sure. But I have no way to prove otherwise. And just as you have the the desire to believe bad of the United States and its current administration I have the tendency to believe other wise and the worst of Saddam Hussein. However, the horror stories that I have heard of Saddams regime have also come from very reliable sources over a period of years. Is there anyone in the United Nations that says otherwise.
A question that comes to mind is why would you post that here? What is the point. To prove how bad we are? It is becoming my opinion that the world (this board is not the world I guess) has forgotten what good we have ever done in this world and remembers all our faults.
Someone once said on here they never argue politics where it does no good. I can't remember who said it but he was very wise.
A question that comes to mind is why would you post that here? What is the point. To prove how bad we are? It is becoming my opinion that the world (this board is not the world I guess) has forgotten what good we have ever done in this world and remembers all our faults.
Someone once said on here they never argue politics where it does no good. I can't remember who said it but he was very wise.
Linda