.~ Lizzy
Irving Layton
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Tchocolatl
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At this point of the thread, it appears to me that this coffin is a real Pandora's box as the guy was a trickster (Jung, here, again) which is the mark of a good artist. The trickster helps to capture pieces of torn and broken realities and to but the inside world round and complete by giving it signification.
No Geoffrey, I did not meant any of what you wrote in your previous post, Geoffrey, I meant what I wrote in my previous post.
I don't think that I am more courageous than you are. Maybe I have less taboo than you have, and certainly I am less interested by all those sexual things (or euphemisms) than you are presently. No problem. Vive la différence. "I would have preferred it, though, had he said 'another man' rather than the plural 'men'." Are you a sentimental guy Geoffrey? You will probably like this movie then :
http://brokebackmountainmovie.com/
No Geoffrey, I did not meant any of what you wrote in your previous post, Geoffrey, I meant what I wrote in my previous post.
I don't think that I am more courageous than you are. Maybe I have less taboo than you have, and certainly I am less interested by all those sexual things (or euphemisms) than you are presently. No problem. Vive la différence. "I would have preferred it, though, had he said 'another man' rather than the plural 'men'." Are you a sentimental guy Geoffrey? You will probably like this movie then :
http://brokebackmountainmovie.com/
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linda_lakeside
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- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
I can definitely see and understand that Leonard may have had 'stirrings' for other men. He's a sensual/sexual guy. I think the plural 'men' as opposed the singular 'man' is more generic and non-specific. If he had said 'man', then that would probably indicate the he did indeed have an affair. I think a lot of men have homosexual 'thoughts' but don't necessarily act on them, let alone admit it. So, being attracted to 'men' isn't all that surprising, to me. He lived in a very open world and during a very open time, with the wine flowin', etc.
There are a lot of references to F and the narrator in BL having had sex. Even though the one scene that Geoffrey pointed out was probably the most graphic, there is a reference to F telling Edith they were 'fairies, and the narrator's horrified reaction. There are many references to specific acts, which anyone who read the book will remember.
Linda.
There are a lot of references to F and the narrator in BL having had sex. Even though the one scene that Geoffrey pointed out was probably the most graphic, there is a reference to F telling Edith they were 'fairies, and the narrator's horrified reaction. There are many references to specific acts, which anyone who read the book will remember.
Linda.
Thanks, tony.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/obi ... 37,00.html
Obituary
________________________________________
Irving Layton
Firebrand Canadian poet and lecturer, he taught Leonard Cohen
Cathryn Atkinson
Monday January 23, 2006
The Guardian
Although he did not start writing poetry formally until he reached his 30s, the Canadian poet Irving Layton, who has died aged 92, was soon producing a book of verse a year. He was nominated for the Nobel Prize for literature in 1982 and again in 1983, and won Italy's Petrarch Prize for Poetry in 1993. A gifted lyricist, he considered himself a "romantic with a sense of irony" in both words and actions, and his confidence was matched by his talent, which he used to fight uniformity and puritanism. He had a joy for carnality that could be equalled by his tender expressions of life's more bittersweet fruits, and shook up Canadian sensibilities in the 1950s and 1960s.
Layton was born Israel Pincu Lazarovitch in Tirgul Neamt, Romania, the youngest son of a Jewish bookkeeper. He never tired of explaining that he was born without a foreskin, thus circumcised by God, a matter of wonder for his family and of pride for himself. The family emigrated to Montreal when Layton was an infant, settling in multi-ethnic working-class St Urbain. His father died in 1925 and 13-year-old "Issy" became a door-to-door salesman. He abandoned this to return to school, where his life was forever changed at 16 when his English teacher read Tennyson's ballad The Revenge to the class. "I'd never heard the English language so beautifully read," he recalled.
He joined the Young People's Socialist League during his 20s, which later led to his being banned from entry into the United States for 15 years. His first writing was as a student journalist at Montreal's Macdonald College, from which he graduated with a BSc in agriculture in 1939.
He married Faye Lynch, the first of his five wives, in 1938. The couple moved to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where Layton had an unhappy stint as a brush salesman. He left his wife and his brushes and enlisted in the army. He accepted an honourable discharge in 1942, returning to Montreal and its burgeoning literary scene. His first book of poetry, Here and Now, was published in 1945. He married Betty Sutherland - the step-sister of the actor Donald Sutherland - with whom he had a son and daughter, a year later.
To augment his meagre earnings from poetry, Layton taught at a Jewish high school, and at Montreal's Jewish Public Library. Eventually he lectured part-time at Sir George Williams University. He also taught English at Toronto's York University during the 1970s. His students adored his firebrand style. Among them was the poet and singer Leonard Cohen, who became a friend. "I taught him how to dress. He taught me how to live forever," Cohen said of their relationship.
Layton, the "Picasso of poetry", had a complicated private life: marrying a former student, encouraging lovers to change their names - his fifth wife, Annette, became Anna - writing a vitriolic book about an ex-wife. He had two more children, his last daughter arriving when he was 70. "Everything except writing poems and making love ends up finally boring me," he said. But he could charm women. He once pacified a classroom of critical feminists by reading Keine Lavorivitch: 1870-1959, a poem dedicated to his difficult mother:
When I saw my mother's head on the cold pillow,
Her white waterfalling hair in the cheek's hollows,
I thought, quietly circling my grief, of how
She had loved God but cursed extravagantly his creatures.
For her final mouth was not water but a curse,
A small black hole, a black rent in the universe,
Which damned the green earth, stars and trees in its stillness
And the inescapable lousiness of growing old.
And I record she was comfortless, vituperative,
Ignorant, glad, and much else besides; I believe
She endlessly praised her black eyebrows, their thick weave,
Till plagiarizing Death leaned down and took them for his mould.
Layton was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in 1995. Anna, who was 50 years his junior, left him around the same time. His care was overseen by a group of friends, who moved him to a Montreal geriatric care centre in 2000. There his many supporters, including Cohen, continued to visit him.
Layton is survived by his two sons and two daughters.
• Irving Layton, poet, born March 12 1913; died January 4 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/obi ... 37,00.html
Obituary
________________________________________
Irving Layton
Firebrand Canadian poet and lecturer, he taught Leonard Cohen
Cathryn Atkinson
Monday January 23, 2006
The Guardian
Although he did not start writing poetry formally until he reached his 30s, the Canadian poet Irving Layton, who has died aged 92, was soon producing a book of verse a year. He was nominated for the Nobel Prize for literature in 1982 and again in 1983, and won Italy's Petrarch Prize for Poetry in 1993. A gifted lyricist, he considered himself a "romantic with a sense of irony" in both words and actions, and his confidence was matched by his talent, which he used to fight uniformity and puritanism. He had a joy for carnality that could be equalled by his tender expressions of life's more bittersweet fruits, and shook up Canadian sensibilities in the 1950s and 1960s.
Layton was born Israel Pincu Lazarovitch in Tirgul Neamt, Romania, the youngest son of a Jewish bookkeeper. He never tired of explaining that he was born without a foreskin, thus circumcised by God, a matter of wonder for his family and of pride for himself. The family emigrated to Montreal when Layton was an infant, settling in multi-ethnic working-class St Urbain. His father died in 1925 and 13-year-old "Issy" became a door-to-door salesman. He abandoned this to return to school, where his life was forever changed at 16 when his English teacher read Tennyson's ballad The Revenge to the class. "I'd never heard the English language so beautifully read," he recalled.
He joined the Young People's Socialist League during his 20s, which later led to his being banned from entry into the United States for 15 years. His first writing was as a student journalist at Montreal's Macdonald College, from which he graduated with a BSc in agriculture in 1939.
He married Faye Lynch, the first of his five wives, in 1938. The couple moved to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where Layton had an unhappy stint as a brush salesman. He left his wife and his brushes and enlisted in the army. He accepted an honourable discharge in 1942, returning to Montreal and its burgeoning literary scene. His first book of poetry, Here and Now, was published in 1945. He married Betty Sutherland - the step-sister of the actor Donald Sutherland - with whom he had a son and daughter, a year later.
To augment his meagre earnings from poetry, Layton taught at a Jewish high school, and at Montreal's Jewish Public Library. Eventually he lectured part-time at Sir George Williams University. He also taught English at Toronto's York University during the 1970s. His students adored his firebrand style. Among them was the poet and singer Leonard Cohen, who became a friend. "I taught him how to dress. He taught me how to live forever," Cohen said of their relationship.
Layton, the "Picasso of poetry", had a complicated private life: marrying a former student, encouraging lovers to change their names - his fifth wife, Annette, became Anna - writing a vitriolic book about an ex-wife. He had two more children, his last daughter arriving when he was 70. "Everything except writing poems and making love ends up finally boring me," he said. But he could charm women. He once pacified a classroom of critical feminists by reading Keine Lavorivitch: 1870-1959, a poem dedicated to his difficult mother:
When I saw my mother's head on the cold pillow,
Her white waterfalling hair in the cheek's hollows,
I thought, quietly circling my grief, of how
She had loved God but cursed extravagantly his creatures.
For her final mouth was not water but a curse,
A small black hole, a black rent in the universe,
Which damned the green earth, stars and trees in its stillness
And the inescapable lousiness of growing old.
And I record she was comfortless, vituperative,
Ignorant, glad, and much else besides; I believe
She endlessly praised her black eyebrows, their thick weave,
Till plagiarizing Death leaned down and took them for his mould.
Layton was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in 1995. Anna, who was 50 years his junior, left him around the same time. His care was overseen by a group of friends, who moved him to a Montreal geriatric care centre in 2000. There his many supporters, including Cohen, continued to visit him.
Layton is survived by his two sons and two daughters.
• Irving Layton, poet, born March 12 1913; died January 4 2006
I wonder in whose obituary, or whose book, Musia Schwartz will finally be mentioned. It's almost as if there were some kind of privacy pact, regarding her absolute devotion to his care and well-being, whilst he lived out his final years in the Montreal centre. I wish I knew that to be the case, as in the meantime, it continues to seem a grievous oversight.
On the other hand, I'm very glad to see Leonard included in significant ways, as a longtime friend, for an obituary.
~ Lizzy
On the other hand, I'm very glad to see Leonard included in significant ways, as a longtime friend, for an obituary.
~ Lizzy
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linda_lakeside
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Unfortunately, when we come to the end of our lives, we're not always able to do 'the right thing' for those that cared for us. There may be other family members who would rather keep this a private matter. Perhaps, Ms. Schwartz wants to keep this private, herself, for the time being at least. People, of course, need time to grieve.it continues to seem a grievous oversight.
Yes, Leonard was indeed a good friend. How sad that he has to deal with this death at this point in his life.
Linda.
Yes, I'm hoping for the privacy wish, and that it's not a shunning by the family that's led to her, seemingly not being mentioned anywhere, when in fact, she was a constant presence. If it's her desire, I am in agreement.
I felt as you did, Linda, about Leonard's having to deal with this. I have felt heartened, however, by his words at Irving's funeral, about "this is not a time for sadness . . . ," as well as what he said in the interview in the film about what happened to his view of death, when he was 9 and lost his father. It seems he make take these things in greater stride than I do, or that I've projected that he does. I hope so.
~ Lizzy
I felt as you did, Linda, about Leonard's having to deal with this. I have felt heartened, however, by his words at Irving's funeral, about "this is not a time for sadness . . . ," as well as what he said in the interview in the film about what happened to his view of death, when he was 9 and lost his father. It seems he make take these things in greater stride than I do, or that I've projected that he does. I hope so.
~ Lizzy
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linda_lakeside
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I think Leonard's had a lot of time for reflection on death. Even its alternatives, such as reincarnation, if that's what his beliefs are. I'm sure, though, that no matter what his view is, it has to hurt. He can be philosophical, but losing an old friend, even after a very lengthy illness, is very painful.
Yes, I hope he takes these things in a 'greater stride' than most of us, but he's human, after all. He has to be thinking about the past and what good times they had. That's the sad thing about aging; losing ones old friends. It puts one in touch with their own mortality. I'm sure he's thinking of that also. He seems so burdened right now. What with his management trying to jump-start his career at his age, it has to weigh on him. But, he has a strong spirit, I'm sure, at least I hope, these matters will make him stronger.
Linda.
Yes, I hope he takes these things in a 'greater stride' than most of us, but he's human, after all. He has to be thinking about the past and what good times they had. That's the sad thing about aging; losing ones old friends. It puts one in touch with their own mortality. I'm sure he's thinking of that also. He seems so burdened right now. What with his management trying to jump-start his career at his age, it has to weigh on him. But, he has a strong spirit, I'm sure, at least I hope, these matters will make him stronger.
Linda.
Yes, I absolutely agree with all you've said here, Linda. That was my initial position and remains 'in there,' as well. It's only since reading what he actually said at Irving's funeral, and then his comment on how his perspective of death 'solidified' at such a young age, that I felt somewhat 'better' on his behalf. I know he didn't feel 'just fine' about it all, but I do now feel more confident that his level of acceptance about it, particularly with Irving's longtime struggle with Alzheimer's Disease, left Leonard in better stead than I had first imagined. It's helpful to see what people themselves have to say about how they feel. It still remains, though, that an old friend's presence is no longer here; yet, conversely, his presence does still remain, through his dynamic words ~ the one thing that Leonard and others focused so strongly upon at Irving's funeral.
I appreciate what you're saying and, initially, felt exactly only that. I just find comfort in what I've been reading since... I think I feel these things more, as I get older and contemplate all the very same issues, and am faced with and am experiencing the same kind of losses. When we're young, we feel so invincible.
~ Lizzy
I appreciate what you're saying and, initially, felt exactly only that. I just find comfort in what I've been reading since... I think I feel these things more, as I get older and contemplate all the very same issues, and am faced with and am experiencing the same kind of losses. When we're young, we feel so invincible.
~ Lizzy
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linda_lakeside
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- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
Yes, that's true, when we're young we don't think we'll age, let alone 'die'. But, as we do age, we gain wisdom through introspection, experience. It's easier to find a kind of 'peace' with the world and how it works. We understand 'death' more than we did as children, and know it will come for us one day. We live with it, in a way.
I think the really tough thing about Layton's last years was his Alzheimer's. That must be so devastating to friends and family. I can't imagine the suffering they go through.
As for Leonard coming up with the 'appropriate words', when doesn't he?
Layton lived a long, full life, doing what he loved. We should all be so lucky. And yes...he's still here, in a way. Through his own words, and the words of those that looked to him as a role model and mentor.
Linda.
I think the really tough thing about Layton's last years was his Alzheimer's. That must be so devastating to friends and family. I can't imagine the suffering they go through.
As for Leonard coming up with the 'appropriate words', when doesn't he?
Layton lived a long, full life, doing what he loved. We should all be so lucky. And yes...he's still here, in a way. Through his own words, and the words of those that looked to him as a role model and mentor.
Linda.
Agreed...
agreed...
agreed...
and agreed.
Seriously.
You've said it well, and I truly agree on all of it [again ]. I believe in reincarnation, yet still am not anxious to move on to the next lifetime. I don't feel at all finished with this one, yet. So, I find comfort in my beliefs, but still not to the extent that I embrace or fully accept the idea of death. I continually find comfort in the words of others, that do fall on that side of the ledger. If not totally there, at least moreso than my own.
~ Lizzy
agreed...
agreed...
and agreed.
Seriously.
You've said it well, and I truly agree on all of it [again
]. I believe in reincarnation, yet still am not anxious to move on to the next lifetime. I don't feel at all finished with this one, yet. So, I find comfort in my beliefs, but still not to the extent that I embrace or fully accept the idea of death. I continually find comfort in the words of others, that do fall on that side of the ledger. If not totally there, at least moreso than my own.~ Lizzy
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linda_lakeside
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- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
I'm not finished with this world either. It's something innate that I 'feel'. I sense that there's something left undone. More miles to drive, etc. But, I wonder how many people thought that just before they were hit by a bus?
I don't think I believe in reincarnation as such, but I do believe in a higher 'energy'. This is a difficult area for me to talk about, because my beliefs are so unclear, even to myself! I can't articulate how I feel about what comes after this world, but I don't believe this world is the 'end'. I don't think there is an 'end', as such. Maybe we'll meet there, at some point in the future, as I have to run, right now.
Nice talking to you, Lizzy.
Linda.[/i]
I don't think I believe in reincarnation as such, but I do believe in a higher 'energy'. This is a difficult area for me to talk about, because my beliefs are so unclear, even to myself! I can't articulate how I feel about what comes after this world, but I don't believe this world is the 'end'. I don't think there is an 'end', as such. Maybe we'll meet there, at some point in the future, as I have to run, right now.
Nice talking to you, Lizzy.
Linda.[/i]
Hi Linda ~
. But, a smile that was right on the verge, enough to say the laugh was already there, waiting to come out, immediately surfaced when I read it. Yes ~ there is that aspect, too... too sadly true.
The more I read of others' beliefs, feelings, and suspicions about the/an 'afterlife' and higher energies, the better it is for me. A recent quote I've encountered is one that, at least in principle, I've heard before ~ but it still holds true, and I find a realism in it that brings me comfort with the idea of death. I never tire of viewing it from this perspective:
"Seeing death as the end of life is like seeing the horizon as the end of the ocean." ~ David Searles
Yes ~ wouldn't that be great
!?! "The Leonard Cohen Forum ~ Linda! Linda Lakeside! Yes ~ That was you, wasn't it !?! Yes 
!" My understanding is that it doesn't matter whether we knew/remember what the other looked like [which means it also won't matter if you don't put your photo on frapper 
].
~ Lizzy
Gosh ~ I tried not to laugh at this, I really didBut, I wonder how many people thought that just before they were hit by a bus?
. But, a smile that was right on the verge, enough to say the laugh was already there, waiting to come out, immediately surfaced when I read it. Yes ~ there is that aspect, too... too sadly true.The more I read of others' beliefs, feelings, and suspicions about the/an 'afterlife' and higher energies, the better it is for me. A recent quote I've encountered is one that, at least in principle, I've heard before ~ but it still holds true, and I find a realism in it that brings me comfort with the idea of death. I never tire of viewing it from this perspective:
"Seeing death as the end of life is like seeing the horizon as the end of the ocean." ~ David Searles
Yes ~ wouldn't that be great
!?! "The Leonard Cohen Forum ~ Linda! Linda Lakeside! Yes ~ That was you, wasn't it !?! Yes !" My understanding is that it doesn't matter whether we knew/remember what the other looked like [which means it also won't matter if you don't put your photo on frapper ].~ Lizzy
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Tchocolatl
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Probably because of a one dot, I can not enter the site by clicking on this link, as I am probably not the only one stops by this dot...jarkko wrote:I have created a blog/website for people to post their thoughts and memories - http://irvinglayton.blogspot.com/.
Tara Gowland (Jacobs)
http://irvinglayton.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... onard.html