leonardcohenforum.com

You're doing fine, just fine, more than fine, Antonio . I sense your frustration, even so, and look forward to what you consider your progress!

~ Lizzy

One thing in what I think from time to time is the machines of orblivion, les silent strategies of orblivion; I can hardly understand them, or I understand only the surface... talking about the subject of this thread, why, for example, a singer such as Edith Piaf (an excellent singer, I may add) has entered the canon of Occident, while other good interpreters from her period, the thirties and forties, are absolutely, or mostly, unknown (Yvette Guilbert, Marianne Oswald, Marie Dubas, the caf'conc tradition...)? It has nothing to do, necesarily, wiht technique or singer skills, as far as I know hearing them. It is quite extrange, there are lots of reasons, but, finally, one is tempted to say it is some kind of giocco d'azzardo. What do you think about it?

Greetings,

Antonio

What does giocco d'azzardo mean? (accident)? Remember that jacques Brel is Alive and Well and living in Paris was America's longest running off Broadway play and is being revived in March. DRG records is trying to bring Brel in French to America and so reissued some his major CDS, I worked on the booklets. We have lousy language education and are used to only English. Piaf sung in English sometimes, as did Montand and Aznavour and the US and France were allies in WW2. Maybe that's how she got here.

My idea of why a star is shining more or less, is that talent is for something, yes of course, but personality also, and what kind of energy a person has, all this is a mixture of the personal history of the singer. Many people are talended but few people have the personality to reach "the top" and/or stay there. In some cases it is because people just don't like this side of show business.

Edith Piaf had an extraordinary strong personality and energy and this is apparent in her songs. She renders the emotions so greatly.

Yes, right, nothing to say about the strong personality of Piaf; what I tried to say is that also strong and talented personalities such as Yvette Guilbert and Marianne Oswald are absolutely unknown; I think showbussiness don't let enter some things into the canon for some particular reasons. Sometimes we think that the best artists are those who reach fame or those who are internationally aclaimed; that is certainly untrue for lots of singers and writers. I think in such strong personalities such as Marlen Haushofer, Bruno Schulz, Witkiewicz, Rozanov; who remember them? In music is the same thing.

Lightning:

very interesting things you say, really precise information. Giocco d'azzardo is a game of random, or fate; it's italian, don't know how this word entered my message, some kind or unconscious flow, perhaps

I think there's much, perhaps essentially gioco d'azzardo in these things, and there are without any doubt great artists (perhaps the best ones) no one ever heard about. How would you know!
Concerning arts as contemporary painting etc. I can say from my experience that the people that are successful are almost always very strong caracters who don't have any doubts about themselfes and their work, who impose themselfes. "If you put them out by the door they come back in by the window" as you could say in german. Anyways, doubt seems to me essential to proceed in art, and in the whole life. These people I know are very "unidimensional", so convinced of themselfes and of their little thing...
This doesn't say anything about the quality of their work. And of cours there is this "bussiness and commerce" thing, who has it's own laws. I have the impression that success gets more and more arbitrary and hasn't necessarily much to do with quality.

(My english is awful I can't get expressed half the things I'd like to say...)
Greetings
Nila


Ne chantez pas la mort c'est un sujet morbide
Le mot seul jette un froid aussitôt qu'il est dit
Les gens du showbuisseness vous prédiront le bide
C'est un sujet tabou pour poètes maudits...
(Jean-Roger Caussimon, sung by Léo Ferré)

I understood very well Nila! and I don't mean the French part You are explaining with more details what I meant by :

"Many people are talended but few people have the personality to reach "the top" and/or stay there. In some cases it is because people just don't like this side of show business."

While to be at the top is the sole purpose of some others. So we can say at this point of the dicussion that ambition is a necessary ingredient. And will.

Well, in any case I'd say it's more azzardo than will. But that's life... Surely you can increase your chances if you have the will and the power, but there is no guarantee that that will be enough.

Yeap. But the contrary, I never saw it : let say a person without any talent, with no personality, no charisma, and no will at all becoming a star by pure chance. Success comes with inspiration a lot of transpiration, and then the Big Gambling decides who by chance will win or not, but only in this order. I do believe big stars have a stronger personality than less bigger stars. You know they are "monsters". When somebody is really moving, stunning, can struck like a, well, let say truck (I'm tired, excuse this one), if this person stand in the rigth places, this is likely that chances are this monster will be easy to detect for people in the industry of show biz. We are not all born equals. That's life like you said.

Nice paintings, nila, very in the atmosphere of the Caussimon's quote. I'm difficult with music, but I like almost any pictural art. I particularly like the gioco d'azzardo with the perspectives in yours. I find them deep.

"We are not all born equals. "

That's for sure true... I agree with you. Lasts the question if personality and tenacity are necessarily combined with real talent... I'm not so sure about that.

Very pleased you like my work.

Please allow me to explain a little more precesily what I meant. We are not all equals under the sun, but we are equally valuable. I think that every human being is a mine of diamants in regard of creativity. Some express it - being a star or not, and artist or not - some others are cut from their own creativity, unfortunately, and at the other extremety some may only express it by destroying, but creativity is a quality owned by every one.

Talent? Yes, of course, a person may have more talent than another one in a field or another, but the more competitive personality (and/or the best plugged) will shine over the less competitive ones (and/or best plugged). As we are living in a very competitive society. This is what I meant.

Now, it would be good if we can see and hear all talented people, not only and always the super-stars.

In this angle, Antonio's posts are interesting in term of bringing here some talended artists not so well known.

***

Very pleased that you bring your work to my attention. I feel that all the pleasure is for me. (have to run now... huuu..... )

I understood what you mean. I agree with you. It's not, of course, a question of value.

I'm now seemingly back after a little personally productive time away from the board.
I wrote something at the beginning of this thread and I just read everything I missed. I really wish that I had been around to participate in it as it was going on. I enjoyed a lot of what I read but I am unfortunately having trouble thinking about specific things to comment on.

Antonio, don't worry about what you think is your lack of eloquence. I understood the things you were saying.

Voo, you found the right place to dance lonely in a hotel in Dayton, Ohio or whatever that was.

Lizzy, I really enjoyed your long post about the cultural alloys of America. I also hope that there are enough people who value their own cultures enough to pass them on undiluted, or not bastardized (since I can tell you loved my usage of that word before.) There is a vegetable and fruit market that I go to in Carbondale, Illinois strictly to see people of other cultures intermingling. I strike up as many conversations as I can there. There are a great number of recently immigrated people and it's always interesting to learn what I can about them. And to perhaps let them know that many Americans are friendly, since I think that there are many who probably don't enjoy any kind of warm welcome when they get here. Of course, I also get good fruit out of the deal, so it's not simply about my philanthropy of personality. But I like to think that I warm their day as they do mine.

I was reading all about all of the dark female performers and didn't see Nico's name mentioned. That was surprising. Well, I suppose that was my contribution to the thread. The idea of Nico.
Kevin

Wellcome, Kevin!

We were discussing the work of singers in french and other languages apart from english; nobody has forgotten Nico, her strength and innovation; we were just talking about other singers that could be unknown for english speakers, in order to introduce them.

Nobody tells anything about Ingrid Caven! (Snif...)

Greetings