The word and the voice of God

[Casey Butler]

Also Myra...

There is a PBS NOVA special available on DVD based on physicist Brian Green's "The Elegant Universe". It's exceptionally well done and very cool, though a little out of date as it's four or five years old at this point. It's available from Amazon.com, but it costs.

http://www.amazon.com/NOVA-Universe-Mic ... 836&sr=1-1

There's a low-quality several part copy watchable for free on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw64f4vGcNA

It's all on the record, everybody's inventory, everybody's Heart. Restoration is just a decision away.

Casey

[Myra]

No debate is necessary, no more reading through these long messages...

You're right - no debate - this seems to be an innate truth for you.
It is highly unlikely that I or anybody else would ever convince you that what you know to be true is not.

All Star Treks fail on at least one point: The hypothesis, as you articulated it that death is necessary for us to learn to live with because death teaches us to have empathy and to better appreciate the joy in life while we have it, is the big cop-out part of otherwise interesting Star Trek "science fiction".

Thank you for pointing out what you believed my hypothesis to be. I never stated that I believed that death was necessary to learn to live with because it teaches us empathy... I merely stated that it was part of life. Whether you believe death to be the end or merely a metamorphosis is irrelevant.

I did make a supposition though - Suffering can be a catalyst for joy and appreciation of life. Our ability to suffer beyond physical pain as well as our ability to empathize with others who are suffering helps to make us what we are. .

If I'm understanding you correctly I think we agree here.

I'm afraid I conducted my own experiment last night -

hypothesis - Poking fun at Cassey and acting like an ass in general would be more fun than simply asking for clarification.

observations - based on self evaluation (I'm not very scientific am I?) Although initially amusing to myself I soon after just felt like a jerk.

conclusion - my hypothesis was incorrect and I am sorry if I offended - although I suspect you have an interesting sense of humor and that I did not.

Myra

p.s. I like the "The Elegant Universe" very much.

Here's a link for a TED talk by Aubrey de Grey - a controversial researcher from the United Kingdom.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/39

I'm sure you'll like this if you haven't seen it already.

p.p.s. - a bit long winded myself, just call me pot.

[Casey Butler]

You're right - no debate - this seems to be an innate truth for you.
It is highly unlikely that I or anybody else would ever convince you that what you know to be true is not.

Not true... the One who convinced me death doesn't exist to begin with - He could convince me otherwise. That must reassure you...

So it's not like I'm completely intransigent on the subject.

No debate because it's like all of the evidence and witnesses you're familiar with are against what I'm saying, except for a couple. You would win hands down.

Thank you for pointing out what you believed my hypothesis to be. I never stated that I believed that death was necessary to learn to live with because it teaches us empathy... I merely stated that it was part of life. Whether you believe death to be the end or merely a metamorphosis is irrelevant.

Symantics, I think. If you're saying death is part of life and it teaches us empathy then you're rationalizing death as necessary... etc...

And knowing what death is certainly isn't irrelevant to determining whether it's part of life or not... People believe lots of things about everything, especially death... but knowing what death is is very relevant to understanding whether death really exists or not as part of life.

I did make a supposition though - Suffering can be a catalyst for joy and appreciation of life. Our ability to suffer beyond physical pain as well as our ability to empathize with others who are suffering helps to make us what we are.

But tell me this, if death did not exist, would you be making such insane suppositions?

I think not. You sound particularly sane to me.

So bottom line is you're still rationalizing a usefullness for death rather than spending your efforts figuring out what "death", as we call it, actually is.

Worse, you're harrassing and poking fun at somebody who knows what it is and is actually foolish enough to try to explain it...

hypothesis - Poking fun at Casey and acting like an ass in general would be more fun than simply asking for clarification.

observations - based on self evaluation (I'm not very scientific am I?) Although initially amusing to myself I soon after just felt like a jerk.

conclusion - my hypothesis was incorrect and I am sorry if I offended - although I suspect you have an interesting sense of humor and that I did not.

I wasn't offended. My sense of humor is a little perverse. Not being a poet with meaningful metaphor to hide behind, it helps when swimming upstream to have a somewhat perverse sense of humor.

But seriously, suppose you knew for a fact that nobody else has to die, that this is heaven right here, that to God nobody has died to begin with, and that all good and all evil folks will live again in the flesh and un-metamorphed, how would you tell the world without being called a fool, how would you get people's attention...

Or... Let's say, suppose Leonard Cohen knows that nobody else has to die, that God is, etc... How could he tell the world?

Would anyone listen or even consider what he might have to say... How could he tell you, Myra?

We have to catch up with the poets.

Draw way back, like one of those movie intros that zooms in on earth, but in reverse. Embrace all of what you see, no matter how good or bad it is. What a program!

If there is a God, we are where we ought to be right now. So you start here and look backwards.

Here's a link for a TED talk by Aubrey de Grey - a controversial researcher from the United Kingdom.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/39

Thank you for the link... I'd lost the link to that article I mentioned. Another crazy computer programmer!

"Kettle".

[john.m.lake]

Just a comment...

This past Friday my wife (Chrissy) surprised me with two more Leonard Cohen CD's - New Skin For The Old Ceremony & Recent Songs... She is the best!
I Prefer New Skin BUT found both to be excellent. And my collection grows... and my education continues : )

[Casey Butler]

And my collection grows...

Not to you particularly, John. But it occured to me this morning that Leonard Cohen's Collection is growing too.

I heard this weekend that Charlton Heston said to his audience: "I can part the Red Sea, but I can't part with you."

So it turns out even Moses never learned the lesson of Pharoah. All Pharoahs collect souls. No Pharoah parts with his souls easily. "Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant... tantalized and magnetized. They can't handle the whole Truth. I could barely handle the whole Truth myself..."

How do you transform a bird into a mountain? You cultivate mystery where Truth has been planted.

Eventually the man becomes the woman he loves. He becomes Ms. Collector. "Rubbin' half the world against her thigh..."

Oh, move across those borders, please, Eliezar, did you stop reading the papers?

Semper Fi.

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Casey: Not to you particularly, John. But it occured to me this morning that Leonard Cohen's Collection is growing too.

I heard this weekend that Charlton Heston said to his audience: "I can part the Red Sea, but I can't part with you."

So it turns out even Moses never learned the lesson of Pharoah. All Pharoahs collect souls. No Pharoah parts with his souls easily. "Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant... tantalized and magnetized. They can't handle the whole Truth. I could barely handle the whole Truth myself..."

How do you transform a bird into a mountain? You cultivate mystery where Truth has been planted.

Eventually the man becomes the woman he loves. He becomes Ms. Collector. "Rubbin' half the world against her thigh..."

Oh, move across those borders, please, Eliezar, did you stop reading the papers?

Semper Fi.

Casey

Hi Casey....

Ah... the elusive 'Truth'. Some claim no knowledge of it, some claim to be the righteous owners of it - and some spend a lifetime seeking it. When a sweeping statement is made.. such as... 'The Truth is a combination of 'Everything' - then - the door is opened for ridicule and calls of blasphemy.. How can he be right if she is right and their truth is not the same? How indeed yell the cries! But...Looking through their eyes, their souls becomes known, listen to the cries, they will hear their your own.

In the sky he sees your eyes. Through your eyes he sees the world. Through your eyes he sees you cry. From the sky he sees your home. From your home he sees your life. From your life he sees your death. From your death you see your life. In your mind is the world. In your heart is the love. From the love your world is born. With your thoughts your reality is formed. With your hand you touch his heart. From the heart, you understand.

Feel the air go through your nose and through your mouth as it fills into your lungs. Feel your heart pounding. Feel your lungs as they exhale the air back out into the air. See through your eyes the colors they perceive this reality to be. Our thoughts are our world. You see what you want to see in the wonderful dream.

[Casey Butler]

Encouraging me to sugar-coat Reality, or avoid Him altogether, won't do me any good, but thank you for the kindness intended. :-)

All religions and philosophies, be they self-made or based on the snares and traps in the Bible, Qur'an, Lotus Sutra, or whatever, anything invented to pander to our avoidance of the realities of who we are and what we've surrounded ourselves by... they're all snares of God and those wise people whose wisdom we ignore called "prophets".

When God's snares have outlived their usefullness for you, He'll tell you. In the meantime, enjoy the snares...

Like those FLDS Saints in Texas are enjoying theirs, as the fire burns their men, women, and children.

When did separating children from their mother and father become less abusive than respecting the freedom of religion we espouse? Who is next?

"Burn them!", right Eliezar? Everybody knows they have to burn.

She didn't bend to your longing.

[john.m.lake]

Casey: Encouraging me to sugar-coat Reality, or avoid Him altogether, won't do me any good, but thank you for the kindness intended.

All religions and philosophies, be they self-made or based on the snares and traps in the Bible, Qur'an, Lotus Sutra, or whatever, anything invented to pander to our avoidance of the realities of who we are and what we've surrounded ourselves by... they're all snares of God and those wise people whose wisdom we ignore called "prophets".

When God's snares have outlived their usefullness for you, He'll tell you. In the meantime, enjoy the snares...

Like those FLDS Saints in Texas are enjoying theirs, as the fire burns their men, women, and children.

When did separating children from their mother and father become less abusive than respecting the freedom of religion we espouse? Who is next?

"Burn them!", right Eliezar? Everybody knows they have to burn.

She didn't bend to your longing.

Hi Casey....

The Meaning of Life is 'Love'. It can not be denied. That's why so many fear it. It is strong and it is good. It grabs hold and won't let go. But of course you will not willingly let it go. You move closer and closer. You begin to understand. You feel the power by taking him by the hand. Your thoughts are forming what you do. Our combined thoughts are forming what will be. It will be before our eyes, what we see. The warm Spring breeze surrounds you. In your heart there will always be Love. With your smile the sun will always shine from above.

No sugar coating present my brother - and - the only avoidance I wish of you - is the avoidance of some of the scripture of these oh so wise prophets that you speak.

For, theirs is the realm of self righteous glory and theirs is the realm of the horrific story.

Behold the glory! Behold the story!

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

Allah has blinded the disbelievers. 2:17-18

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Only those Jews and Christians who convert to Islam will be rewarded with heaven. 2:62

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88

The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Disbelievers are losers. 2:121

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

"Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?"
Cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27) to condemn the idea of a secular state. 2:130

Those who reject the proofs, are accursed of Allah. 2:159

Those who die disbelievers, are cursed by Allah, angels, and men. 2:161

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174

How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264

"Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286

Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4

Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10

Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19

Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

"They [Christians and Jews] say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion." (The Fire will burn them forever.) 3:24

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28

Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32

Allah will punish disbelievers in this world and the next. They will have no helpers. 3:56

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Theirs will be a painful doom. 3:77

All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

Of course you could counter with the loving verses.. but, I say to you - The loving versus do not make these verses of nonsense go away and the contradictions are clear and the words are emblazoned with fear.

And the only acceptance I wish of you - is the acceptance of your own Inner Knowledge and Understanding.. for you are part of God.. and the prophets have nothing on you.

[Casey Butler]

Behold the glory! Behold the story!

What you posted are not verses from the Qur'an, you know that, right? They are hate propaganda meant to make you fear Muslims.

I won't contradict you with "loving verses", let me just share with you the real verses that are so misleadingly summarized by whoever put this litany of hate together in the first place.

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Blaze of Light: "As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:6-7]

If everyone is a part of God, who sets the seal on the hearts of those who disbelieve? Don't the disbelievers themselves do it...

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

Blaze of Light: "In their hearts is a disease; and God has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves). When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth.", they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realize (it) not." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:10-12]

Again, if everyone is a part of God, who increases the disease in hearts of those who disbelieve? Who's causing mischief on the earth today?

Who wrote these interpretations of Qur'anic verses you have posted, for example...

Are they causing mischief?

Allah has blinded the disbelievers. 2:17-18

Blaze of Light: "Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, God took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:17-18]

Who took away the light left to us by Jesus Christ who kindled that Fire? Is the Sermon on the Mount really not understandable? Was Jesus God or a "failed prophet", or was He a Prophet telling us how we would eventually live together in Peace under God when we're ready?

Nobody will return to the path deaf, dumb, and blind...

We'll have to open our ears, our mouths, and our eyes to return to the Path.

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Blaze of Light: "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true. But if you cannot, and of a surety you cannot, then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:23-24]

Fire, fire, fire, stones, stones, stones. The same fire Jesus spoke of: "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast (it) from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 18:9]

"...I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" [KJV-Bible - Luke 3:16]

All prophetic Fire is the same, whether rained down on "cities" or saved for disbelievers on the Last Day...

"For our God (is) a consuming fire." [KJV-Bible - Hebrews 12:29]

Everyone here is feeling that Fire today, I won't attempt to articulate or define it.

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

Blaze of Light: "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:39]

For as long as they reject faith and belie the signs that have been sent, they will abide in the Fire. See above...

Disbelievers abide in the Fire forever, only believers come out of the Fire... It's the same as the metaphorical Jewish and Christian Fire, never literal in way shape or form.

"Every heart to love will come, but like a refugee..."

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Blaze of Light: "And remember you said: "O Moses! We cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech your Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth grows, its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said: "Will you exchange the better for the worse? Go you down to any town, and you will find what you want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of God. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of God and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:61]

The Song of Moses. Deuternomy 34. What about the next verse?

Only those Jews and Christians who convert to Islam will be rewarded with heaven. 2:62

Blaze of Light: "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, will have their reward with their Lord; on them will be no fear, nor will they grieve." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:62]

John, you see what they've done here, whoever put this list together. It is hate propaganda. The Big Lie as Goebbles called it. Prepatory to nuclear holocaust.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness, need have no fear. If anything, the Qur'an says Muslims have to follow believe and read the Torah and Gospels, Jewish and Christian scriptures... I'm missing where it says in the Qur'an everybody has to convert to Islam, because it never says it anywhere.

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Blaze of Light: "And well you knew those among you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be you apes, despised and rejected." So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear God." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:65-66]

Think about this carefully:

The Sabbath, according to Moses, was instituted as a memorial to the Creation of earth in six days. People who reject the Sabbath defacto reject the Creation story, all that's left is evolution, and we are all apes. Does the "God" envisioned by Pat Robertson and even Muhammad not despise and reject those who reject Creation? The signs are there for all to see - in our own time and posterity. During Closing Time.

If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Blaze of Light: "And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but God, treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did you turn back, except a few among you, and you backslide (even now)."

"And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood among you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: And this you solemnly ratified, and to this you can bear witness."

"After this it is you, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancor; and if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that you believe in, and do you reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this, but disgrace in this life? And on the Day of Judgment they will be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what you do." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:83-85]

Again, the penalty is of our own making. It's all around us today.

Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88 / The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89

Blaze of Light: "They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word: We need no more)." Nay, God's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe. And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them, although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith, when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it. But the curse of God is on those without Faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:88-89]

Think about that, what is the "curse of God", did God curse us here or did we do it ourselves... LOL.

Snared. "Nothin' left to do when you know that you've been taken..."

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

I'll just continue the above until it reaches this verse 2:96 so you can read the context:

Blaze of Light: "Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which God has sent down, in insolent envy that God of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith."

"When it is said to them, "Believe in what God Has sent down.", they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us.": Yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have you slain the prophets of God in times gone by, if you did indeed believe?""

"There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet you worshipped the calf (even) after that, and you did behave wrongfully. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law).": They said: "We hear, and we disobey.": And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if you have any faith!""

"Say: "If the last Home, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek you for death, if you are sincere." But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. And God is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers."

"You will indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life, even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For God sees well all that they do." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:90-96]

Greedy of life, more than any other people? Is that not what we're supposed to be: greedy of life?

What do you mean, the Qur'an says Jews are "greedy", John?

I'm going to split messages for the rest of these. This is getting big. Be back in a bit...

Casey

[Casey Butler]

Continued...

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Blaze of Light: "Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael, Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:98]

Who that rejects faith considers God their friend? To such a person, God is his/her enemy. It's the same old Two-Edged Sword. Jesus said: "For he that is not against us is on our part." [KJV-Bible - Mark 9:40]

What's the difference, unless you're caught in God's snare.

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

Blaze of Light: "We have sent down to you Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse. Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside? Nay, Most of them are faithless." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:99-100]

"We asked for signs, the signs were sent..."

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

Blaze of Light: "O you of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger) words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment."

"It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that Any good should come down to you from your Lord. But God will choose for His special Mercy whom He will, for God is Lord of grace abounding." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:104-105]

True enough. All we want is the oil.

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

Blaze of Light: "The Jews say: "The Christians have nothing (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have nothing (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment."

"And who is more unjust than he who forbids that in places for the worship of God, God's name should be celebrated? Whose zeal is (in fact) to ruin them? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is nothing but disgrace in this world, and in the world to come, an exceeding torment." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:113-114]

Until they wise up. I've been through that torment, I can confirm this.

"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Blaze of Light: "Say those without knowledge: "Why speaks not God unto us? Or why comes not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the Signs unto any people who hold firmly to Faith (in their hearts)."

"Verily We have sent you in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner: But of you no question will be asked of the Companions of the Blazing Fire." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:118-119]

Disbelievers are losers. 2:121

Blaze of Light: "Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein, the loss is their own." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:121]

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

Blaze of Light: And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith, for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire. An evil destination (indeed)!" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:126]

LOL.. Welcome to the Fire! Not a pleasant destination is it... Eternal war and "terrorism" waged against war.

"Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?" Cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27) to condemn the idea of a secular state. 2:130

Read about Abraham, John. He was a lot like Leonard Cohen.

Blaze of Light: "And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. Behold! His Lord said to him: "Bow (your will to Me).": He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:130-131]

Those who reject the proofs, are accursed of Allah. 2:159

Blaze of Light: "Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, on them will be God's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse, Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-Returning, Most Merciful." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:159-160]

We are living that curse today... all descriptions of it are the same. It's the law of "what goes around comes around".

Those who die disbelievers, are cursed by Allah, angels, and men. 2:161 / The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

Blaze of Light: "Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting, on them is God's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;"

"They will abide therein: Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot)."

"And your God is One God. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:161-163]

Another simple statement of fact. How can their penalty be lightened as long as they reject faith and Love? How can the "curse of God" be removed as long as we refuse to Love?

Love is patient.

They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

Not as disbelievers... the disbeliever will stay in the fire forever, only the believer he or she becomes will emerge.

Blaze of Light: "And those who followed would say: "If only We had one more chance, We would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us." Thus will God show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:167]

All believers will come out though, and all will believe. Every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess...

We who have not had time to read, to hear. The Key of David, "David's Secret Chord", the Two-Edged Sword, all the scriptures say the same thing.

Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171

Blaze of Light: "The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:171]

LOL.. I think it says they already are.

Did you actually read some of these before you posted them? I probably wouldn't have either, before God climbed me out of the snares.

More in a minute...

Casey

[Casey Butler]

Continued...

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174 / How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

Blaze of Light: "Those who conceal God's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit, they swallow into themselves nothing but Fire; God will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them: Grievous will be their penalty. They are the ones who buy Error in place of Guidance and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah! What boldness (They show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because God sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism Far (from the purpose)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:174-176]

The Apostle Paul said the same thing in 1 Corinthians 3:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [KJV-Bible - 1 Corinthians 3:10-15]

The Qur'an states again and again that its foundation is the Torah and Gospels, every Word of Jesus Christ included. Muhammad built with Gold on the sure Foundation.

Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

Blaze of Light: "O you who believe! The law of equality is prescribed for you in cases of murder: The free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits will be in grave penalty."

"In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o you men of understanding; that you may restrain yourselves." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:178-179]

It does not say 'must'.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2 / Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

Blaze of Light: "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:190-193]

Jesus said: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 5:38-39]

Who are the hypocrites exposed today - the followers of the Prophet Muhammad who obey God or the followers of the Prophet Jesus who tell God to fly a kite, they'll do it their way?

And that hypocricy is at the root of the Fire seething within Christians today...

Ask any Israeli, any practicing Jew, do the prophets of God allow war in self-defense? Which ones don't, which ones teach even agressive war?

Again, Jesus said:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

"Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam (is) in thine own eye?"

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 7:3-5]

It's up to us to act first.

Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206

Blaze of Light: "There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life May dazzle you, and he calls God to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies. When he turns his back, His aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But God loves not mischief. When it is said to him, "Fear God., He is led by arrogance to (more) crime. Enough for him is Hell; An evil bed indeed (To lie on)!" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:204-206]

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216 / Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Blaze of Light: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But God knows, and you know not."

"They ask you concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:216-217]

The Second Horseman of the Apocalypse is described as follows:

"And there went out another horse (that was) red: and (power) was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." [KJV-Bible - Revelation 6:4]

Red as in Esau, Edom, etc... Ishmael the first Muslim after Abraham. Power to take peace from the earth - given a "Great Sword". As Christians were forbidden to take peace from the earth and were given a "Two-Edged Sword".

Muhammad is the Good Samaritan, raised by Love to care for the Arabic speaking people we could not be bothered with... as I've already posted the words of Revelation 6:6 as being the words of the Good Samaritan to the Innkeeper, I won't post again.

But what does it take for people to read for themselves, I wonder. "Oh love aren't you tired yet..."

Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221

Blaze of Light: "Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:221]

That's a standard for nearly all religions. Do you know of any religion that encourages "intermarriage"?

Even Atheists I've heard discourage "intermarrying" with people of faith.

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254

Blaze of Light: "O you who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Those who reject Faith, they are the wrong-doers." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:254]

And if there actually is a God, isn't this absolutely true? What are you trying to say here?

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

Blaze of Light: "God is the Protector of those who have faith: From the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: From light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:257]

Same as the Christian Fire, only believers come out, rejectors stay in.

As Paul put it, the old person dies and the new person born again by the Spirit of God.

So that old person never leaves the Fire, never leaves Hell, it dies there.

Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264

LOL How can He guide them if they don't believe... LOLOL. Please... Snares everywhere.. Traps, pits, nets... We've been taken.

Blaze of Light: "O you who believe! Cancel not your charity by reminders of your generosity or by injury, like those who spend their substance to be seen of men, but believe neither in God nor in the Last Day. They are in parable like a hard, barren rock, on which is a little soil: On it falls heavy rain, which leaves it (Just) a bare stone. They will be able to do nothing with anything they have earned, and God guides not those who reject faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:264]

"Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286

Seems a reasonable request... I guess it depends what kind of victory you're envisioning God will give...

Blaze of Light: "On no soul does God Place a burden greater than it can bear, it gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which You did lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:286]

Thank God He does.

Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4

Blaze of Light: "God. There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:2-4]

If there is a God, John, aren't these statements absolutely correct?

Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10

Blaze of Light: ""Our Lord! You are He that will gather mankind Together against a day about which there is no doubt; for God never fails in His promise." Those who reject Faith, neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them anything against God. They are themselves but fuel for the Fire." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:9-10]

That's what Jesus said too, in His parable of the wheat and the tares...

Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

Blaze of Light: "Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:12]

Every heart to Love will come, but like a refugee... Refugee from... Where?

Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19

Not what it says...

Blaze of Light: "The Religion before God is submission to His Will (the meaning of the word Islam): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:19]

"If it be your will..."

Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

Blaze of Light: "As to those who deny the Signs of God, and in defiance of right slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:21]

Good idea...

"They [Christians and Jews] say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion." (The Fire will burn them forever.) 3:24

Christians and Jews who believe in God and the Last Day are already in Gardens, we've established.

So this must mean Christians and Jews who mouth the words but who really don't believe, right...

Blaze of Light: "Have you not turned Your vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of God, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration)."

"This because they say: "The Fire will not touch us but for a few numbered days.": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion."

"But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favor or) injustice?" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:23-25]

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28

Standard operating procedure for nearly all religions, and nearly all Atheists again.

It actually reads:

Blaze of Light: "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: If any do that, in nothing will there be help from God. Except by way of precaution, that you may Guard yourselves from them. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to God."

"Say: "Whether you hide what is in your hearts or reveal it, God knows it all: He knows what is in the heavens, and what is on earth, and God has power over all things."

""On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself, and God is full of kindness to those that serve Him."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:28-30]

Says it's a caution.

Continued in one more message...

Casey

[Casey Butler]

Continued...

Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32

Blaze of Light: "Say: "Obey God and His Messenger: But if they turn back, God loves not those who reject Faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:32]

How can God love those who reject faith, when they don't know God? In fact, the Fire is worse for those who have believed but reject, because they're never sure, never secure in Love. Etc...

Allah will punish disbelievers in this world and the next. They will have no helpers. 3:56

Blaze of Light: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:56]

Consider Jesus' words:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven."

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 8:11-12]

No difference. As long as faith is rejected God can't help, angels can't help, Jesus can't help either.

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

LOL. Who gave you these, I would be curious to know...

Blaze of Light: "A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back;"

""And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of God. (Fear you) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? Or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of God. He grants them to whom He pleases: And God cares for all, and He knows all things."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:72-73]

So it's the "People of the Book" who say "Don't believe anyone who is not of our religion"...

Theirs will be a painful doom. 3:77

Context included below:

Blaze of Light: "Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back. Others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stood demanding, because, they say, "There is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." But they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it."

"Nay. Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright, verily God loves those who act aright."

"As for those who sell the faith they owe to God and their own plighted word for a small price, they will have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will God (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleanse them (of sin): They will have a grievous penalty." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:75-77]

God can't speak to those who won't listen, Love can't cleanse those who disbelieve and sell the words, be they disbelievers of the People of the Book, or any other disbelievers. etc...

All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

Blaze of Light: "If anyone desires a religion other than submission to God (the meaning of the word 'Islam') never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:85]

Said Leonard Cohen: "Every heart, every heart to love will come, but like a refugee."

Of course you could counter with the loving verses.. but, I say to you - The loving versus do not make these verses of nonsense go away and the contradictions are clear and the words are emblazoned with fear.

When you read what it says instead of ignoring it and automatically hating those who believe in it, there's nothing to read fear into at all...

It's all the words of "David's Secret Chord".

We are not standalone today. We are a product of our ancestors words and their search for God recorded in all the scriptures.

Only by the unwitting "fear" we feel of God from our own ignorance, fear generated by His prophets' choice of metaphor, and fear preached at us by His servants, has mankind maintained any kind of civilization at all on earth. Through their law it was all done, by the "finger of God", or by His Authority.

Even the Ten Commandments were written by Moses, according to the Bible, as He was inspired to help the Children of Israel to Love.

But it will be "fear" until reason and Love replaces it in every heart.

One more verse from the Qur'an:

Blaze of Light: "And (remember) Zacharias, when he cried to his Lord: "O my Lord! Leave me not without offspring, though you are the best of inheritors.""

"So We listened to him: And We granted him John: We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him. These (three) were ever quick in emulation in good works; they used to call on Us with love and reverence, and humble themselves before Us."

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples."

"Verily, this brotherhood of yours is a single brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: Therefore serve Me (and no other)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 21:89-92]

Did you know that the word Jezabel translates as "chaste"?

Read Revelation 2:18-29 with that fact in mind. Do you recognize any large religion around today that might fit that metaphor uncomfortably tightly?

And the prophets have nothing on you.

They don't any more... :-) I'm with God now and I'm a free Spirit. I am no longer Collectable, the IRS has certified it.

But I know because I was informed by a wonderful human being, and God took me from there.

We need to be informed, Eliezar, started on our way by someone we respect. Somebody with a voice.

I can sputter out here for a thousand years, and nobody will hear me.

It is written that God will not move to change the state of mankind until mankind moves to change it himself. Furthermore:

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, (thou) that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under (her) wings, and ye would not!"

"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed (is) he that cometh in the name of the Lord." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 23:36-39]

We need to say it together. I've tried it alone for four years, you for a lot longer than that. What the hell... It's worth a shot.

Ever see Bridge On The River Kwai?

God gave us waiters the William Holden part. When she sees Him she'll do the rest. Because Jesus is in her Heart. :-)

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Whoa Casey... that was a lot to read first thing in the morning - I enjoy chatting with you BUT if I try to answer everything in your posts my day will be shot : )

I'll answer what I believe the most pertinent at this time......

Yes.... I bothered to read the verses. And.. I knew that what I posted were not the actual verses - but - interpretations of the verses. And the full verses that you posted read exactly as the interpretations I initially posted. Meaning that, above all, Disbelievers, Unbelievers (Like Myself) of your God are in for one Hell of a painful ride when they leave this plane of existence.

Because I am an Unbeliever I am the worst of beasts....or.. so it is written:

008.055
YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

Because I am an Unbeliever Allah does not love me....or.. so it is written:

030.045
YUSUFALI: That He may reward those who believe and work righteous deeds, out of his Bounty. For He loves not those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
SHAKIR: That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.


Because I am an Unbeliever and Allah does not love me - this is to be my fate : ( ....or.. so it is written:

004.056
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Where you see a Blaze of light - I see Submission and my way is the only way. I see a God that has set a seal on my heart and my ears and my eyes so that I am unable to learn the truth - This God prevents me from Understanding.

Where we agree is that the Punishments come directly from us.... LOL indeed! However - God is 'perfect' because God is 'Everything' - BUT - every bit and piece.. if separated.. is not perfect. Where we do not agree is that you believe Allah/ Yahweh to be in fact thee 'God' - while - I believe Allah/ Yahweh to be 'part' of God - no more.

I hold as a truth that you need not read 'ONE WORD' of 'any' holy book ever written in order to understand GOD the TRUTH or ENLIGHTENMENT - for you are part of God - and you share in a Miracle that needs no written words to see the blaze of light.

[Manna]

John,
If you say that Allah is part of God, and that you believe in God, then don't you believe in Allah too?
I don't think you're slated to burn in the fiery abyss or whatever.

[john.m.lake]

Manna: John,
If you say that Allah is part of God, and that you believe in God, then don't you believe in Allah too?
I don't think you're slated to burn in the fiery abyss or whatever.

Hi Manna… Yes, I believe that there is an Allah – But – I do not believe that Allah is the one true God and I do not believe that Prophet Muhammed and Islam are perfect and beyond reproach.. That makes me an Unbeliever in Allah’s eyes and my fate has been set.