Sounds like the way I remember it, as well.
Paula, I suppose I should apologize for my participation in driving everyone mad where you work...
I suppose it's only natural that I'd be a bit insensitive to the concept of driving someone mad... After all, I can't be driven mad for the same reason a fish can't be taken out for a swim --
D
p.s. I thought "Quadrophenia" was more of a comment on the '70s, wasn't it? Brilliant work, though, either way --
hell bent on war
Mad
"Nothing is said that is not sung."
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George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
David, Paula, Jo, Pete, Byron, vern.silver, tom.d.stiller:
Of all the strange things on this very strange thread is Lizzytysh's accusation against the United States on the AIDS Virus.
Do you think that the United States brewed up the AIDS Virus, inserted this virus in smallpox vaccine, transported it to Africa and innoculated the the men and women with it? In order to depopulate Africa?
Lizzytysh believes this. Do you?
How is one supposed to take seriously Lizzytysh's other pronouncements on the horridness of America.
Of all the strange things on this very strange thread is Lizzytysh's accusation against the United States on the AIDS Virus.
Do you think that the United States brewed up the AIDS Virus, inserted this virus in smallpox vaccine, transported it to Africa and innoculated the the men and women with it? In order to depopulate Africa?
Lizzytysh believes this. Do you?
How is one supposed to take seriously Lizzytysh's other pronouncements on the horridness of America.
George Gordon ~ First things first. First, you learn to read carefully what Lizzytysh writes. Second, having successfully done the first, you can learn to separate what Lizzytysh relates as having been told from what Lizzytysh says she believes. For example [italics mine]:
"There's more than idle speculation that the U.S. is responsible for the AIDS epidemics in Africa and elsewhere, as a means of depopulation, with this premise being around since the 80's....."
I did not say that this is what I believe, Gordon. However, I will not say that I do not believe it, either. Are you aware of the documented injection of syphilis into a number of American blacks in the 30s, 40s? 50s? Can't recall the correct years, but you can believe that they were not knowledgeable of the disease that accompanied this "experiment." Those benign innoculations. It's one of the many, chronic underpinnings of the distrust of the U.S. government by American blacks. David, if you can align all the details properly here, which I'm sure you can, please do so. Also, the more than idle speculation that the CIA introduced "crack" into the lower-income, primarily black, neighborhoods, which I have no problem whatsoever believing. We have a saying here, "There's more than one way to skin a cat."
If you choose to disregard all I say based on some outlandish-seeming things I include in my postings, that's fine, Gordon. They are truly outlandish. They are also, frightfully, quite possibly outlandishly true. As I've said, the more you learn, the less you want to know.....and the more things that you've always believed become tainted.
"There's more than idle speculation that the U.S. is responsible for the AIDS epidemics in Africa and elsewhere, as a means of depopulation, with this premise being around since the 80's....."
I did not say that this is what I believe, Gordon. However, I will not say that I do not believe it, either. Are you aware of the documented injection of syphilis into a number of American blacks in the 30s, 40s? 50s? Can't recall the correct years, but you can believe that they were not knowledgeable of the disease that accompanied this "experiment." Those benign innoculations. It's one of the many, chronic underpinnings of the distrust of the U.S. government by American blacks. David, if you can align all the details properly here, which I'm sure you can, please do so. Also, the more than idle speculation that the CIA introduced "crack" into the lower-income, primarily black, neighborhoods, which I have no problem whatsoever believing. We have a saying here, "There's more than one way to skin a cat."
If you choose to disregard all I say based on some outlandish-seeming things I include in my postings, that's fine, Gordon. They are truly outlandish. They are also, frightfully, quite possibly outlandishly true. As I've said, the more you learn, the less you want to know.....and the more things that you've always believed become tainted.
Hi everibody.
This is my small contribution to the topic, from the NY page
Ok, please, let me share my opinions with you.
I would like to explain why I decided not to come to NY.
And, but it’s my personal opinion, Field Commander Cohen wouldn’t come himself.
”…you who build this altars now
to sacrifice this children
you must not do it anymore”.
Everytime I see tv, I cannot go on.
It’s real, it’s not a trailer.
With today it’s 9 days of no-water for 2 million of people of Bassora.
Thanks to the alliance bombs.
Today one of the English captain said:
<Ok, we had understimate the resistance in Bassora,
and now we cannot help people there>
Yes, I know what happened on September 2001, the 11th, but I also remember Chile, September 1974, the 11th.
Oh the wind, the wind is blowing,
through the graves the wind is blowing
Angry is not a reasonable reaction, and war is so a childly expression.
Dialogue and relationship are for growned-up, people or nations.
There is no Peace without Justice and Dignity for everyone.
The two puppets talk about the post war
I will build you will bring oil home
Oh, such a respectable topic!
They decide from their confortable sites.
Living, breathing, feeling seem to mean nothing more.
Unless, not for everyone.
An emissary cynically says that
America has not gone to war without something in return
when hatred with his package comes,
you forbid delivery
Well, I don’t want to see America now.
My enthusiasm and my happiness have gone away, in the eyes of too many children that die, in their body or, worse, in their soul, for a lifetime.
I love Italy, I’m fashinated by Germany, I like America spirit;
but would you reach Sicily it there were mafia shooting over there? Would you have liked to go to Berlin right after Hitler era?
Would you go to the house of some killer?
For the millions in a prison, that wealth has set apart
may the Light in the Land of Plenty
Shine on the Thruth some day.
I love America, but not now.
This is my small contribution to the topic, from the NY page
Ok, please, let me share my opinions with you.
I would like to explain why I decided not to come to NY.
And, but it’s my personal opinion, Field Commander Cohen wouldn’t come himself.
”…you who build this altars now
to sacrifice this children
you must not do it anymore”.
Everytime I see tv, I cannot go on.
It’s real, it’s not a trailer.
With today it’s 9 days of no-water for 2 million of people of Bassora.
Thanks to the alliance bombs.
Today one of the English captain said:
<Ok, we had understimate the resistance in Bassora,
and now we cannot help people there>
Yes, I know what happened on September 2001, the 11th, but I also remember Chile, September 1974, the 11th.
Oh the wind, the wind is blowing,
through the graves the wind is blowing
Angry is not a reasonable reaction, and war is so a childly expression.
Dialogue and relationship are for growned-up, people or nations.
There is no Peace without Justice and Dignity for everyone.
The two puppets talk about the post war
I will build you will bring oil home
Oh, such a respectable topic!
They decide from their confortable sites.
Living, breathing, feeling seem to mean nothing more.
Unless, not for everyone.
An emissary cynically says that
America has not gone to war without something in return
when hatred with his package comes,
you forbid delivery
Well, I don’t want to see America now.
My enthusiasm and my happiness have gone away, in the eyes of too many children that die, in their body or, worse, in their soul, for a lifetime.
I love Italy, I’m fashinated by Germany, I like America spirit;
but would you reach Sicily it there were mafia shooting over there? Would you have liked to go to Berlin right after Hitler era?
Would you go to the house of some killer?
For the millions in a prison, that wealth has set apart
may the Light in the Land of Plenty
Shine on the Thruth some day.
I love America, but not now.
-
tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
George Gordon,
I do not believe that the US deliberately created the AIDS virus in order to depopulate Africa. But I take it to be quite a possibility that some Military Research Group from whichever country, while looking for a more effective variant of the "French disease", stumbled over it, and that someone decided to "do some testing" on Africans. Things like that have been done in the past, and it might well be an experiment that atrociously styled gets out of control.
One more remark: Even if Lizzytysh had expressed a view like the one you described (she didn't express it, as she rightly says), and even if you'd regard a view like that as an outrage, this wouldn't necessarily disqualify other views held by her. Or do you think that 80 % of the people can't be taken seriously simply because they more or less believe in astrology?
My final question isn't directed only to you, George Gordon, but to everybody: Why is it that some people seem to be picking on lizzytysh all the time, which is expecially strange, when it comes to views she never expressed, or to those she shares with many others? I confess I'm a bit puzzled by this. Maybe someone can help me out of my innocent bewilderment?
Tom
I do not believe that the US deliberately created the AIDS virus in order to depopulate Africa. But I take it to be quite a possibility that some Military Research Group from whichever country, while looking for a more effective variant of the "French disease", stumbled over it, and that someone decided to "do some testing" on Africans. Things like that have been done in the past, and it might well be an experiment that atrociously styled gets out of control.
One more remark: Even if Lizzytysh had expressed a view like the one you described (she didn't express it, as she rightly says), and even if you'd regard a view like that as an outrage, this wouldn't necessarily disqualify other views held by her. Or do you think that 80 % of the people can't be taken seriously simply because they more or less believe in astrology?
My final question isn't directed only to you, George Gordon, but to everybody: Why is it that some people seem to be picking on lizzytysh all the time, which is expecially strange, when it comes to views she never expressed, or to those she shares with many others? I confess I'm a bit puzzled by this. Maybe someone can help me out of my innocent bewilderment?
Tom
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
Below the belt, but I reckon this was intended so...
I do not believe in UFO's, but if the administration said they are real, probably you'd believe in them?
All the "proof" (radar sightings etc.) Ufologists hold so dear is by the way produced by the military: test flights of Stealth bombers etc...
Have you got another question, maybe one worth considering, for a change?
Tom
I do not believe in UFO's, but if the administration said they are real, probably you'd believe in them?
All the "proof" (radar sightings etc.) Ufologists hold so dear is by the way produced by the military: test flights of Stealth bombers etc...
Have you got another question, maybe one worth considering, for a change?
Tom
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George.Wright
- Posts: 1874
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:37 pm
- Location: Bangor, N.Ireland
-
tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
-
George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
Anyone who can hold and believe opposite and contrary views (as Lizzytysh expressed in her last post) at one and the same time is not to be taken seriously on that subject.
Why do you think nearly all the sensible people have left this thread. Now it's just David and Lizzytysh agreeing with each other and telling each other how eloquent their posts are.
Being sensible, I will now leave also. Carry on David and Lizzy.
Why do you think nearly all the sensible people have left this thread. Now it's just David and Lizzytysh agreeing with each other and telling each other how eloquent their posts are.
Being sensible, I will now leave also. Carry on David and Lizzy.
Sensible?
George, I hope you don't leave before you see my opinions on this latest flap.... "sensible" or otherwise.
This particular AIDS conspiracy theory has been around for quite some time. I taught public health at the univeristy level, I know my way pretty well around epidemiological data, and I've had the opportunity to work with some leading figures in the field. All of which is to say that I think I have at least a somewhat substantiated view on issues such as this.
I've seen at least some of the books that allegedly provide documentation for the AIDS conspiracy theory, but in my opinion none of them come close to even suggesting, let alone proving, the existence of such a thing. There is --horribly enough, on its own terms-- documentation that certain individuals within the govt. have seriously considered investigating the possibility of creating new viruses for germ warfare. And, given the Tuskeegee syphillis experiments referred to above, it's not beyond the realm of imagination that such a thing might be attempted using "disposable" human beings as experiment subjects. But the facts simply do not show that any such thing was ever attempted.
But my disagreement with that theory goes beyond lack of data. In my opinion, it misunderstands the global agenda of international corporate capital, and its employees in the U.S. government (and others). Global genocide is NOT their aim; global exploitation of markets is. For that, you need labor: cheap, healthy labor. People dying of AIDS do not make efficient sweatshop workers, campesinos, farm workers, or gold miners.
In terms of social control, the corporate overclass already have plenty of mechanisms --cultural, economic, political-- to ensure this. As the situation in impoversished U.S. communities makes all too tragically clear, it is possible to create a culture of nihilistic self-destruction in which poor people will do as much to themselves and each other --and at a fraction of a cost to the economy of the wealthy-- as any tyrant might want to do to them. The existence of "underclass" of desperate, undeducated, often self-destructive people whose options are usually either to go to prison (increasingly a for-profit business) or to enlist in the military and become cannon fodder for imperialist adventures like the current one, is no accident. As Paul Giroux's new book on Africa shows with heart-breaking vividness, it's being reproduced all over the Third World as well.
They don't NEED an AIDS virus to decimate and control the poor; they've got cultural imperialism, the desperation and nihilism that immersion in poverty bring about, and the various opiates (pharmaceutical and otherwise) to keep people simulataneously apathetic about organizing for social change and aggressively self-destructive enough to "control" their own populations from getting out of hand.
D
This particular AIDS conspiracy theory has been around for quite some time. I taught public health at the univeristy level, I know my way pretty well around epidemiological data, and I've had the opportunity to work with some leading figures in the field. All of which is to say that I think I have at least a somewhat substantiated view on issues such as this.
I've seen at least some of the books that allegedly provide documentation for the AIDS conspiracy theory, but in my opinion none of them come close to even suggesting, let alone proving, the existence of such a thing. There is --horribly enough, on its own terms-- documentation that certain individuals within the govt. have seriously considered investigating the possibility of creating new viruses for germ warfare. And, given the Tuskeegee syphillis experiments referred to above, it's not beyond the realm of imagination that such a thing might be attempted using "disposable" human beings as experiment subjects. But the facts simply do not show that any such thing was ever attempted.
But my disagreement with that theory goes beyond lack of data. In my opinion, it misunderstands the global agenda of international corporate capital, and its employees in the U.S. government (and others). Global genocide is NOT their aim; global exploitation of markets is. For that, you need labor: cheap, healthy labor. People dying of AIDS do not make efficient sweatshop workers, campesinos, farm workers, or gold miners.
In terms of social control, the corporate overclass already have plenty of mechanisms --cultural, economic, political-- to ensure this. As the situation in impoversished U.S. communities makes all too tragically clear, it is possible to create a culture of nihilistic self-destruction in which poor people will do as much to themselves and each other --and at a fraction of a cost to the economy of the wealthy-- as any tyrant might want to do to them. The existence of "underclass" of desperate, undeducated, often self-destructive people whose options are usually either to go to prison (increasingly a for-profit business) or to enlist in the military and become cannon fodder for imperialist adventures like the current one, is no accident. As Paul Giroux's new book on Africa shows with heart-breaking vividness, it's being reproduced all over the Third World as well.
They don't NEED an AIDS virus to decimate and control the poor; they've got cultural imperialism, the desperation and nihilism that immersion in poverty bring about, and the various opiates (pharmaceutical and otherwise) to keep people simulataneously apathetic about organizing for social change and aggressively self-destructive enough to "control" their own populations from getting out of hand.
D
Last edited by David on Tue Apr 01, 2003 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Nothing is said that is not sung."
I would have to see a UFO to believe in them.. But do you believe we are alone in this universe? Nope! And if the some people on this forum start to rule the world I am going to hope like h--- that they come and rescue me, because there will be enough Saddam Husseins (and just to appease you Bush bashers) George Bushes out there to move in take over.
I am sorry that someone feels we are so bad they will not come to NY, tell us what would it take for you to come?
I am sorry that someone feels we are so bad they will not come to NY, tell us what would it take for you to come?
Linda
...
As for the personalist attacks on Tom, Lizzy, et al.:
To consider the possibility that some improbable-sounding thing might be so --or to suggest that one neither believes nor disblieves a wild-sounding theory, but is willing to entertain the notion that it just might be possible-- is not AT ALL the same as submitting blindly to superstition, or irrationally holding two opposing views at the same time. So I would suggest that a major misunderstanding has occurred.
One more AIDS note: unless I'm mistaken [and I admit that it's been some years now since I've perused the data], there is at least circumstantial evidence that something very similar to the AIDS virus appeared, sporadically, in Europe (and Great Britain?) as early as the '50s. This leads some researchers to suggest that in fact the modern AIDS virus is a mutation of something that's been around for quite some time, and did not necessarily originate in Africa.
That being said, the closest thing to a reasonable hypothesis I've heard, in terms of AIDS being somehow the result of U.S.-sponsored germ warfare research, was the suggestion that the virus was being tested or developed in animals somewhere on the African continent (which is kinda weird, since lab animals are available right here at home!) and somehow made the transition to humans. Even THAT, to me, is pretty far-fetched, both because of what I just said about animals being available closer to home, and because of my original statements on how those bent on international economic/political domination don't need the complication and expense of uncertain medical research in order to create the means of controlling and oppressing others -- they've already got the tools they need at hand.
The CIA-crack connection, however, HAS been documented: the alleged "de-bunking" of that particular revelation was itself irrevocably corrupted by ideology and agenda (although, admittedly, the original investigators shot themselves in the foot by taking their conclusions farther than the data --which were sufficiently damning in and of themsevles-- warranted). Columnist Alexander Cockburn has done a pretty good job of outlining the historical trajectory of this particular argument.
As for the accusation that some of us spend all our time telling each other how eloquent we are -- well, folks who agree on some issues will usually tend to affirm that agreement. But rest assured, there's no grand cabal or conspiracy going on around here (at least not that I'm aware of).
And no, I don't believe in UFOs, past-life regressions, healing crystals, thi-bo or whatever it's called, spirit-guides... or even Uri Gellar.
To consider the possibility that some improbable-sounding thing might be so --or to suggest that one neither believes nor disblieves a wild-sounding theory, but is willing to entertain the notion that it just might be possible-- is not AT ALL the same as submitting blindly to superstition, or irrationally holding two opposing views at the same time. So I would suggest that a major misunderstanding has occurred.
One more AIDS note: unless I'm mistaken [and I admit that it's been some years now since I've perused the data], there is at least circumstantial evidence that something very similar to the AIDS virus appeared, sporadically, in Europe (and Great Britain?) as early as the '50s. This leads some researchers to suggest that in fact the modern AIDS virus is a mutation of something that's been around for quite some time, and did not necessarily originate in Africa.
That being said, the closest thing to a reasonable hypothesis I've heard, in terms of AIDS being somehow the result of U.S.-sponsored germ warfare research, was the suggestion that the virus was being tested or developed in animals somewhere on the African continent (which is kinda weird, since lab animals are available right here at home!) and somehow made the transition to humans. Even THAT, to me, is pretty far-fetched, both because of what I just said about animals being available closer to home, and because of my original statements on how those bent on international economic/political domination don't need the complication and expense of uncertain medical research in order to create the means of controlling and oppressing others -- they've already got the tools they need at hand.
The CIA-crack connection, however, HAS been documented: the alleged "de-bunking" of that particular revelation was itself irrevocably corrupted by ideology and agenda (although, admittedly, the original investigators shot themselves in the foot by taking their conclusions farther than the data --which were sufficiently damning in and of themsevles-- warranted). Columnist Alexander Cockburn has done a pretty good job of outlining the historical trajectory of this particular argument.
As for the accusation that some of us spend all our time telling each other how eloquent we are -- well, folks who agree on some issues will usually tend to affirm that agreement. But rest assured, there's no grand cabal or conspiracy going on around here (at least not that I'm aware of).
And no, I don't believe in UFOs, past-life regressions, healing crystals, thi-bo or whatever it's called, spirit-guides... or even Uri Gellar.
Last edited by David on Tue Apr 01, 2003 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nothing is said that is not sung."
Space
Linda --
Funny you'd say that -- I was just listening to the Byrds' old song, "Please, Mr. Spaceman" -- Yeah, getting spirited away and taken to wild and exotic new worlds is a wonderful fantasy, ain't it!? Count me in for a ticket!
[he cues Sun Ra: "Space Is The Place"!]
David
Funny you'd say that -- I was just listening to the Byrds' old song, "Please, Mr. Spaceman" -- Yeah, getting spirited away and taken to wild and exotic new worlds is a wonderful fantasy, ain't it!? Count me in for a ticket!
[he cues Sun Ra: "Space Is The Place"!]
David
"Nothing is said that is not sung."