BEAUTIFUL LOSERS: is it really fiction?

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:48 pm

"Nobody -- no one person -- can do this alone. I don't believe in heroes. I don't even believe in Christ -- I think we all have to get together and develop the consciousness of Christ to solve the mess we are now in."

This is what the Christ said, at least this is what I get told He said.

For the arrow and mud, I would blame the Internet only if special robots would write the bloody messages. As long as human beings are using this mean, they are responsible for what they are writing, not the Internet. Too easy to blame the exterior for everything.

I did read (completely) MLWLC and I must say I was not traumatized by it, so maybe you see it worst than it is. I think that people can make the difference between what is relevant and what is not.

There is a very dark side to whatever is reliated to power in the (only) material world. Showbusiness included.

I don't think you are wrong about that.

I hope that you could have read my more quiet posts to you into the turmoil of this tempest of more or less troll messages. You'll get use to the manic panic and how to read behind the posts what is important and what is not. Should you choose to stay in forums, a choice many people don't do.

I think that you are a good entertainer, that you have a good subject. I think it is not important if Leonard Cohen made the MKUltra project the secrect core of BL or not. I think that what is important, is the inspiration that you got from it.

Do you ever read books by Paulo Coelho? In one of them he explained how he was drawn into this dark side of professional artistic world. Satanic cult and everything. You are not imaginating all this, Humanponeysss2000. This is just that secrets actions are difficult to spot for sure.

I think that you should write something about that. You are good at it.

Have rest. Cyber-hug.
humanponysss2000
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Steve Smith: God's Kaleidoscope

Postby humanponysss2000 » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:58 pm

Thank you Tschokolatl ... I will learn to spell your name. Oui, j'ai lu tes messages qui m'ont touches beaucoup .. malheur! j'ai pas d'accents sur cet ordi! Tout est un probleme de langue, je le sais... c'est pourquoi je suis devenue un cheval ... il y a des mondes a decouvrir quand on quitte la prison humaine



A friend just send me this, re: Steve Smith

I must have asked her about him, a few days ago.

Here's her report:

<<Steve Smith? I actually found a copy of his book, God's Kaleidoscope (McGill Poetry Series, No. 8), in a secondhand store a few years ago -- and bought it. The book is all black, its front cover features a mostly white series of spatters shaped roughly like a human figure in a running position. The author photo on the back cover depicts a man whose beard and dark sun glasses echo the Beat era, a touch of the rabbinical in his solemn _expression. There are gardens and seasons, woman and Jerusalem among the somber pen and ink drawings. But death is the constant theme, culminating in the final section's title, I Am My Own Remains. >>

Academics and others will recognize the McGill Poetry Series which was where Leonard got his start. There were a group of them, loosely grouped around Louis Dudek and Irving Layton. Another was Kenneth Hertx, whom I knew fairly well. In 1978, after Ewen Cameron's CIA experiments made international news, Kenneth started pulling his files out of McGill. He found files on a lot of people there, in connection with experiments done on young people in Montreal, including small children, at this "world-class" university. And this is the toxic secret that almost explodes in Beautiful Losers. Imagine what might have happened if the critics had understood it!
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~greg
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Postby ~greg » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:03 am

I do have more to say, but it's all choked up right now,
and I don't know how long it will take to un-choke.

So I'll put this out first.

------

Thank you Ann, and your friend, for that on Steve Smith.

It is closure for everyone who ever wondered about him.
Louis Dudek wrote: I started the McGill Poetry Series, which published
only ten books, but also launched some prominent names,
Leonard Cohen, Daryl Hine, George Ellenbogen, Dave Solway,
Pierre Coupey, and Seymour Mayne among the rest,
all of whom are still active and writing.

http://web.netrevolution.com/prma1753/ZapDudekBio.htm
Steve Smith's "God's kaleidoscope" was the 8th in that McGill Poetry Series.

It was published in "c1964", the year he died.

"Beautiful Losers" was published two years later, in 1966,
- the same year the last book in the McGill Poetry Series
was published.

Ruth Wisse in "My Life Without Leonard Cohen" wrote this:
More practically, only Dudek's literature class
attracted a plurality of boys, clever boys from philosophy
and economics and even science. I developed a crush on several
of them, and of course on the teacher,...
- Ruth R. Wisse
- "My Life Without Leonard Cohen"
http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/wisse.htm
(--there's a lot about Dudek in that.)


So Steve Smith was 9 years younger than Leonard Cohen.
Which is more in young-years, (since they're the same
as dog-years,) than it is in real-people-years (our-years).

So they may or may not have known each other personally.

But Leonard probably felt a kinship with Steve
in that both were Dudek-clever-boys,
and in that both were first published in that very exclusive
McGill Poetry Series. I think Leonard dedicated Beautiful Losers
to Steve because he was exactly that, a beautiful loser.

His life and career were over, just as Leonard's was
on the verge of blooming.



The 10 books in the "McGill Poetry Series"
are listed below.

(-- found by searching http://www.mcgill.ca/ )

Code: Select all

Author:      Cohen, Leonard, 1934-
Title:       Let us compare mythologies / by Leonard Cohen; drawings by Freda Guttman.
Published:   Montreal : Contact Press, c1956.
Description: 79 p., [5] leaves of plates : ill. ; 21 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 1

Author:      Hine, Daryl
Title:       The carnal and the crane / by Daryl Hine.
Published:   Toronto : Contact Press, c1957 (London, England : Poets’ and Painters’ Press)
Description: 50 p. ; 22 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 2

Author:      Ellenbogen, George, 1934-
Title:       Winds of unreason / by George Ellenbogen ; drawings by Peter Daglish.
Published:   Toronto : Contact Press, c1957.
Description: 87 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 3

Author:      Barnard, Sylvia, 1937-
Title:       The timeless forest / by Sylvia Barnard ; [illustrated by Vera Frenkel].
Published:   Toronto : Contact Press, 1959.
Description: 45 p., [4] leaves of plates : col. ill. ; 23 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 4

Author:      Solway, David
Title:       In my own image / by Dave Solway.
Published:   [Montreal? : s.n.], 1962.
Description: 55 p. ; 24 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series no. 5

Author:      Malus, Michael.
Title:       Night is a flaming city : poems / by Michael Malus.
Published:   Montreal : [s.n.], 1963.
Description: 62 p. : ill. ; 22 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 6

Author:      Coupey, Pierre, 1942-
Title:       Bring forth the cowards / Pierre Coupey. --
Published:   [Montreal : McGill University], 1964.
Description: 67 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. --
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 7

Author:      Smith, Steve, 1943-1964
Title:       God’s kaleidoscope / Steve Smith.
Published:   [Montreal? : s.n.], c1964.
Description: 42 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 8

Author:      Mayne, Seymour, 1944-
Title:       Tiptoeing on the mount / Seymour Mayne ; [drawing by Viviane].
Published:   Montreal : Catapult, c1965.
Description: [32] p. : ill. ; 23 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 9.

Author:      Maraj, Jagdip, 1942-
Title:       The flaming circle / by Jagdip Maraj.
Published:   [Montreal? : s.n.], c1966.
Description: 35 p. ; 23 cm.
Series:      McGill poetry series ; no. 10

- http://aleph.mcgill.ca/F/AKRPE6HTYAJP8X ... =005922503
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:17 am

Thanks for posting that list, Greg. Extremely interesting seeing all of the books that constituted that series that has so often been mentioned.

Have you read them by any chance?
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McGill Poetry series....

Postby humanponysss2000 » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:20 am

There were other poets associated with that series, if not actually published in it: Kenneth Hertz, as I mentioned, and Henry Moscovitch. Seymour Mayne would be a source of information.

I hesitate to talk more, except to say there was a very high level of suicide and insanity, some of it related to dangerous drugs which were circulating. I know of people in the arts who were approached, as early as 1954, and asked if they would like to take LSD in one of Cameron's experiments. Cameron believed in "community outreach" through the arts.

An NFB film called The Ernie Game -- shot in Montreal, quite popular in about 1967 -- appears to be the story of one of Dr. Cameron's victims. Leonard appears in one scene, entertaining people at a party. Ernie ends up committing suicide because he simply can't function outside the mental hospital.

There is also the NFB film ANGEL... you'll recognize the voice on the sound track. The NFB is essentially the offspring of the Canadian military, and if you check the record, you'll see they were very interested in LSD during the sixties, and a couple of years ago they produced a film that looks at all the "good things" that came out of LSD experiments in Weyburn, SK. I think people should start looking at all this with a more critical eye/

Then there's Ryan Larkin, slightly younger generation, subject of the Oscar winning film RYAN. The film is technically brilliant, but doesnt ask many probing questions about how Ryan came to be in such a state.

I think there's a belief out there that poetry, drugs, and insanity go together. Or that the wages of art is suicide and early death.

But when you look behind the curtain, you can see the military-medical people in the background both at McGill and the NFB, taking notes...

Hope I am not being too annoying here.
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Under starry skies above
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:07 pm

Still, I am not convinced about MKUltra project being the hidden subject in BL.

You see, I consider evidences.

I do not look for "who is saying this?" in order to allow (strange but true) a bully behavior against the person or not , I'm not lured by the illusion of credibility : if the person seems OK to me, I believe what ever bull shit the person does/do/say, and if it seems the person is not OK, I don't. Credibility must not rest on illusions.

Or. On this statement.

Is the person "a friend" (stange, as most of the time this "friend" tag is given to people in fact not known at all but, only on "faith" and/or beliefs about this person).

I don't care for the status, the age, the sex, the fame, the whatever of the person.

I consider facts.

So. Here they are :

The world is much too used to its poètes maudits - and other artists' well known exentricities to blame on this project for all the trouble in the Montréal's artistic community of your youth.

Montréal is a fly's shit spot on the planet, and 1950-70 a flash of light in the time

The artistic weird excentric mind covered up the whole world and time, though, including this particular period in this particular place.

Was Dali under the influence of MK Ultra? I don't think so. What about Picasso? Both very weird minds. Hum... just another example : Ms. Woolf. Did she take LSD? Good question. She finished her days walking into a marsh with rocks full her coat' pockets, if my memory is good.

I know for sure that MKUltra project is true.

But, you know.

We must remimber also that drugs were also an important part of the hippie culture for a completely different purpose. This is true also, even if this truth stands in the sun light.


***

Still, you have a very very good subject. Go on! :D
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Must poets be insane?

Postby humanponysss2000 » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:34 am

<<The world is much too used to its poètes maudits - and other artists' well known exentricities to blame on this project for all the trouble in the Montréal's artistic community of your youth.>>


<<Montréal is a fly's shit spot on the planet, and 1950-70 a flash of light in the time

The artistic weird excentric mind covered up the whole world and time, though, including this particular period in this particular place.

<<Was Dali under the influence of MK Ultra? I don't think so.

<<What about Picasso? Both very weird minds. Hum... just another example : Ms. Woolf. Did she take LSD? Good question. She finished her days walking into a marsh with rocks full her coat' pockets, if my memory is good. >>


Actually, some people have said Dali was involved in CIA-related activity... as were Tim Leary and Baba Ram Dass. The nature of the involvement was different in each case.

Under a cloak of "national security" and total secrecy, many strange things are possible.

When you check out the record, Joan Baez has stated she came from a MKULTRA family -- her father ran one of the projects out of Cornell University

Allen Ginsberg's long poem "Howl" describes a holocaust of a generation, in which you can find quite specific references to the same widespread experimental program. And the CIA ended up paying him $1 million or so for his personal papers, a few years before he died... perhaps they considered him an asset?

More generally, though, war and suffering are stimuli for great art. Without war, and the bombing of Guernica, Picasso's fame would be much less. Same goes for Virginina Woolf: Mrs. Dalloway was written in reaction to the horrors of the first world war, and one of the most memorable things in it is the portrait of the shell-shocked young soldier who, we suspect, will never recover from his trauma in France.

Beautiful Losers may also have a touch of greatness due to its genesis in another war zone, i.e. Montreal in the "Quiet Revolution" -- only the warfare was biological, chemical and above all psychological. Can this be true??? In Canada??? There's plenty of evidence that it can.

And I am grateful Leonard left us this personal record.
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~greg
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Postby ~greg » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:47 am

More generally, though, war and suffering are stimuli for great art. Without war, and the bombing of Guernica, Picasso's fame would be much less. Same goes for Virginina Woolf: Mrs. Dalloway was written in reaction to the horrors of the first world war, and one of the most memorable things in it is the portrait of the shell-shocked young soldier who, we suspect, will never recover from his trauma in France.


bored are we?
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:12 pm

Who are that "we" Greg? You? And your multiple personalities 8) ? Otherwise I want a list of the silent ones behing this "we". Or maybe you are quoting a message that you have received regarding your troll messages? Who knows. :roll:

Humanponeysss2000, I won't discuss those affirmations in detail. I'll just add :

Every true emotional situation can inspire interesting valuable work.

Usually everybody is touched in his/her own way by a deep emotional experience of an individual (and/or a group).

It seems to me that this situation in particular - for personal reasons of yours - is an inspiration worth to be taken into account.

You have the skills, you have a good subject, the inspiration. If it touches me, I'm pretty sure it will touch an significant audience, as I am the so average common being.

Cyber-hug. :D
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:13 am

Whatever was in the novel, whatever wasn't - it doesn't matter.

It is powerful, well-written, reads true, has horrific paragraphs, degrading paragraphs, beautiful, poetic paragraphs; and you can't help but feel that a lot of it is actually the personal experience of Leonard, either first-hand experience or the experience of people close to him.

Just like The Favourite Game.

It is an intensely personal novel. I have read it once. I doubt I will ever read it again, because I found so painful and difficult to read. But I am glad I read it.
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:49 am

This doesn't directly relate to speculations on Beautiful Losers, but it does have to do with why I can give creedence to them, in the context that they're being provided. Over the years, I've heard some of the things being said regarding experiments, etc. and I know too well how cover-ups are rampant. The problem is I don't have that 'photographic' type memory that can recall the necessary, relevant details in order to 'make a case' regarding all that I've read and heard. I remember reading an article very early on in the Sixties about the government saying LSD was a good thing, per the experiments they were doing with it. Then, all of a sudden, the government was condemning its use. At the time, I read into that nothing more than that they must really mean it, that it was bad, as they had reversed their own position on it... so it wasn't an anti-hippie, propaganda position. Hitler and his people didn't hesitate to experiment on the Jewish people; our government has used the enlisted military to experiment; corruption is rampant in Washington... just listen to our daily news. So, nothing would surprize me as to the possibilities of what was going on in Montreal. Canada has been aligned with the U.S. in more ways than we commonly think. As for what Leonard may or may not have been aware of, I'd prefer to leave him out of active discussion about it, simply because if he really was aware of it and documented it in his/this way, for that to come to the fore could result in an extreme, such as endangering him. Just a thought.

Well, here goes on the U.S. ~ this addresses something you asked me about awhile back, Demetris. Whether its Leonard and Beautiful Losers, or Bush winning in Ohio, those of us who seriously entertain and give credibility to these items, will always be considered fringe, crazy, or 'suspect,' ourselves. That's part of the necessary dynamic.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Oct29.html



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That's over 41 Million Americans.
You are NOT alone!

~ Lizzy
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:51 am

bored are we?
Tchocolatl ~ That's just a figure of speech here. It means, "Bored are you?"

~ Lizzy
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Postby Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:48 pm

This was one of the more interesting threads that I've read in a while. I have heard of the MKULTRA project before this but I didn't know that there was speculation about it having anything to do with McGill University.

Anne, the Angel short movie that you're writing about is among the extras on the "Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Leonard Cohen" DVD. I always thought it was a weird, trippy, acid-art film or something. I didn't know that the NFB of Canada was connected to the military, acid experiments or what that might mean. But, again, I didn't know that MKULTRA had anything to do with Canada. I did wonder why the National Film Board of Canada wuld make a movie like that. It's basically Leonard and some chick running around and she has on angel wings and in between guitar strumming they're talking. It's filmed so that you can see their outlines but not them in detail.

I looked for the "My life with Leonard" thing but couldn't find it.
I'm always interested in conspiracy theories. If there are any aliens from outer-space I demand that they pick me up, or at least drop by for a visit.

Kevin
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:43 pm

Now they have learned from their mistakes. No more conspiracy of silence. They have made a job out of being a guinea pigs for experimentation on human beings. On the publicity you see pictures of "wise" healthy "winner" sexy young men. "I do" they said. Good thing for them. :roll: . After, they will have only them to blame for that, 'cause they will have signed all these discharge of responsibilities papers.

Some people learn from their mistakes, others don't. This is how life goes.
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Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:45 pm

Also, it is now a well know fact that they test contraception pills on Mexican women on the early time of its appearance. This to offer an acceptable product to American women. :roll: So. We can blame it on the E.T. We can always blame the exterior for our problem. Sure. Easy. Not efficient in regard of solution, but you know. Easy/lazy.

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