The whole arrangement will depend on internal system of coordinates. Where will be the frontal, the main emphasis, what will be behind that? Keep it in mind.I don't take the barbaric point at all.
about critique
I can't yet find online the review from today's Observer, that may have been interesting because the writer seemed to start with the same pre-conceptions as you did, Bee, or perhaps the same first impressions. But once the writer saw the statue in real life she was very impressed by the artistic merit.
anyway, from my daily paper, the Guardian
Marc Quinn's Alison Lapper Pregnant is a much more arresting, impressive and strange work than photographs can convey. Even Alison Lapper's own naked, photographic self-portraits do not really prepare you for the sculpture itself.
Once seen, it is hard to drag one's eyes away. It isn't just the size and mass of Quinn's sculpture, or the cool, off-white marble, lighter than any of the stone of the square or the buildings around it. It is all in the form, and the strangeness of Alison Lapper's body itself, its irreducible familiarity and otherness. Necessarily, one struggles to describe her body in terms that do not make her sound grotesque - while even the medical name of her condition, phocomelia, refers to having limbs "like a seal's flipper". When the sculpture was installed, wrapped in polythene sheeting and tape, I thought of a Henry Moore wrapped by Christo. Unwrapped, she looks more like a sphynx by Odilon Redon, or a sculpture by Louise Bourgeois. One thinks of Jean Arp: but what one really thinks of is Alison Lapper.
Perhaps we needed the example of Picasso's portraits to recognise beauty in certain faces. And it could be that the model of Picasso's eroticised, biomorphic figures of the 1920s and 30s also allow us to see that Alison Lapper can be beautiful too, in the same way that Velasquez's portraits of dwarfs remind us of the humanity of his subjects.
Quinn's sculpture has nothing to do with the male heroics of Nelson and the generals on their plinths in the square. Lapper's supposed "heroism" is of an entirely different, deeper type. And in the end this is more sculpture than statuary. What is genuinely extraordinary about Marc Quinn's Alison Lapper Pregnant, is Alison Lapper, naked, pregnant.
anyway, from my daily paper, the Guardian
Marc Quinn's Alison Lapper Pregnant is a much more arresting, impressive and strange work than photographs can convey. Even Alison Lapper's own naked, photographic self-portraits do not really prepare you for the sculpture itself.
Once seen, it is hard to drag one's eyes away. It isn't just the size and mass of Quinn's sculpture, or the cool, off-white marble, lighter than any of the stone of the square or the buildings around it. It is all in the form, and the strangeness of Alison Lapper's body itself, its irreducible familiarity and otherness. Necessarily, one struggles to describe her body in terms that do not make her sound grotesque - while even the medical name of her condition, phocomelia, refers to having limbs "like a seal's flipper". When the sculpture was installed, wrapped in polythene sheeting and tape, I thought of a Henry Moore wrapped by Christo. Unwrapped, she looks more like a sphynx by Odilon Redon, or a sculpture by Louise Bourgeois. One thinks of Jean Arp: but what one really thinks of is Alison Lapper.
Perhaps we needed the example of Picasso's portraits to recognise beauty in certain faces. And it could be that the model of Picasso's eroticised, biomorphic figures of the 1920s and 30s also allow us to see that Alison Lapper can be beautiful too, in the same way that Velasquez's portraits of dwarfs remind us of the humanity of his subjects.
Quinn's sculpture has nothing to do with the male heroics of Nelson and the generals on their plinths in the square. Lapper's supposed "heroism" is of an entirely different, deeper type. And in the end this is more sculpture than statuary. What is genuinely extraordinary about Marc Quinn's Alison Lapper Pregnant, is Alison Lapper, naked, pregnant.
Bravo~!
I hope this answers my question to Bee, which I came to ask, "What if the angles and proportions of this sculpture replicate the actual ones of Alison Lapper ~ would barbaric still be your word choice?"
The next question was to be, "If it is a replication, are we to immortalize only the perfectly formed beings who have been part of our world?"
Then, I was going to go on with a four-part question, "What is the purpose of art, and who determines the standards for measuring its artistic merit and quality? Do those standards change over time, and if so, can we ever make a definitive statement on the artistic merit and quality?" I also know these are not new questions, in the world or on the Forum.
I would be interested in hearing who was on the committee for the decision to place [or have commissioned for placement] this statue in the square.
Just today, they're celebrating Lolita ~ at the time, of its initial publication 50 years ago, considered "obscene" and now considered a literary masterpiece. Certainly not the first time in the world of 'art' for that to occur.
The initial objections to this sculpture did not seem to be ones related to the merit of one's craft, but rather to subject matter.
I love this.
~ Lizzy
I hope this answers my question to Bee, which I came to ask, "What if the angles and proportions of this sculpture replicate the actual ones of Alison Lapper ~ would barbaric still be your word choice?"
The next question was to be, "If it is a replication, are we to immortalize only the perfectly formed beings who have been part of our world?"
Then, I was going to go on with a four-part question, "What is the purpose of art, and who determines the standards for measuring its artistic merit and quality? Do those standards change over time, and if so, can we ever make a definitive statement on the artistic merit and quality?" I also know these are not new questions, in the world or on the Forum.
I would be interested in hearing who was on the committee for the decision to place [or have commissioned for placement] this statue in the square.
Just today, they're celebrating Lolita ~ at the time, of its initial publication 50 years ago, considered "obscene" and now considered a literary masterpiece. Certainly not the first time in the world of 'art' for that to occur.
The initial objections to this sculpture did not seem to be ones related to the merit of one's craft, but rather to subject matter.
What is genuinely extraordinary about Marc Quinn's Alison Lapper Pregnant, is Alison Lapper, naked, pregnant.
I love this.
~ Lizzy
found the Observer review, I hope this interests both Lizzy and bee, (and anyone else following what I find to be a fascinating discussion)
Bold, brave, beautiful
Marc Quinn's sculpture of Alison Lapper has completely transformed Trafalgar Square
Rachel Cooke
Sunday September 18, 2005
The Observer
Alison Lapper Pregnant
Trafalgar Square, London WC2
I expected to be writing about how much I disliked Alison Lapper Pregnant, the 12-ton, marble sculpture that now graces Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth. I had seen pictures of Marc Quinn's maquette of the piece and had thought the subject matter - Lapper was born with no arms and shortened legs - too deliberately controversial, too feebly didactic and, as a result, rather banal.
But I should have known better. When it comes to sculpture, never underestimate the move from maquette to finished work. In the case of Alison Lapper Pregnant, something wonderful has happened in the zoom from miniature to massive, and it is not only the sheer scale of the thing (the statue is 3.55 metre tall and manages to feel even bigger) that demands a certain respect. White and dazzling, Quinn's sculpture has set a grey corner of a grey space unexpectedly ablaze.
On Thursday, when the piece was unveiled, it was raining: driving, dirty rain of a kind that always feels singular to London. Beyond all the umbrellas, mayor Ken was droning on; I couldn't catch what he was saying. Alison Lapper Pregnant was swathed in stately purple cloth, like a giant competitor in a wet T-shirt competition. Most people, I think, just wanted Ken to get on with it, so they could race home, or back to their offices, and wrap themselves in a towel.
But then the cloth came off and it was as if someone had switched on a light. Against a sky the colour of old underwear, a circle of buildings that might as well be built of concrete for all the life and warmth their stony facades exude, Quinn's womanly but warrior-like Lapper in marble from Pietrasanta, Italy, glowed like a beacon. Around me, the damp crowd started to smile and to talk.
Quinn says his inspiration came from the fact that there was 'no positive representation of disability in the history of public art'. Lapper says that she hopes the sculpture will 'make a difference ... it's inspirational. It puts disability and femininity and motherhood on the map. It's time to challenge people's perceptions of these things. I'm hopeful it can make a difference'.
Looking at the statue, I wondered whether she might not be right about this. I hate overt messages in art, which is why my favourite of all the pieces that have graced the fourth plinth is still Rachel Whiteread's wonderfully sly and elusive Monument
But what strikes you about Alison Lapper Pregnant are its elegant proportions, the implacable rightness of the way his subject sits there. It brings to mind the classical statues that grace our greatest museums, other sculptures from other times which also have, whether by accident or design, missing arms and legs.
Quinn's sculpture is very beautiful, and this is how it works on you, in insidious fashion. Lapper has written a book about her life, and knowing the details - that her mother periodically abandoned her; that she is now a feisty single mother - remind you of all that she has struggled against, of how vivid and extraordinary a person she must be.
But I don't think they come in to play as you gaze on her outsize image in Trafalgar Square, though as a fighter, she takes her rightful place alongside the soldiers on the other plinths, Charles Napier and Henry Havelock. No, by choosing to portray Lapper naked and pregnant, Quinn has given us an Everywoman. You look at her face, her breasts and her swollen belly, and only afterwards do you wonder about her limbs.
Alison Lapper Pregnant will be in situ for 18 months, when it will be replaced by Thomas Schutte's Hotel for the Birds. I hope this cycle of change continues for a very long time to come (the fourth plinth, designed by Charles Barry, was built in 1841; the funds to top it with an equestrian statue never materialised).
The arrival of Quinn's sculpture is an event, one that, through sheer verve and loveliness alone, seems to knock into a cocked hat the tired debate about what constitutes public art. This is public art, and let that be an end of it.
I would like to think that the plinth commissions will become a regular excitement, just like Tate Britain's magnificent Turbine Hall installations. It was great, watching Tate visitors 'sunbathe' beneath Olafur Eliasson's spectral Weather Project in 2003 and it will be good, too, when we see people eating their lunchtime sandwiches beside Alison Lapper Pregnant, occasionally glancing up at her determined jaw as they chew.
· My Life in My Hands by Alison Lapper with Guy Feldman is published by Simon & Schuster, priced £12.99
Bold, brave, beautiful
Marc Quinn's sculpture of Alison Lapper has completely transformed Trafalgar Square
Rachel Cooke
Sunday September 18, 2005
The Observer
Alison Lapper Pregnant
Trafalgar Square, London WC2
I expected to be writing about how much I disliked Alison Lapper Pregnant, the 12-ton, marble sculpture that now graces Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth. I had seen pictures of Marc Quinn's maquette of the piece and had thought the subject matter - Lapper was born with no arms and shortened legs - too deliberately controversial, too feebly didactic and, as a result, rather banal.
But I should have known better. When it comes to sculpture, never underestimate the move from maquette to finished work. In the case of Alison Lapper Pregnant, something wonderful has happened in the zoom from miniature to massive, and it is not only the sheer scale of the thing (the statue is 3.55 metre tall and manages to feel even bigger) that demands a certain respect. White and dazzling, Quinn's sculpture has set a grey corner of a grey space unexpectedly ablaze.
On Thursday, when the piece was unveiled, it was raining: driving, dirty rain of a kind that always feels singular to London. Beyond all the umbrellas, mayor Ken was droning on; I couldn't catch what he was saying. Alison Lapper Pregnant was swathed in stately purple cloth, like a giant competitor in a wet T-shirt competition. Most people, I think, just wanted Ken to get on with it, so they could race home, or back to their offices, and wrap themselves in a towel.
But then the cloth came off and it was as if someone had switched on a light. Against a sky the colour of old underwear, a circle of buildings that might as well be built of concrete for all the life and warmth their stony facades exude, Quinn's womanly but warrior-like Lapper in marble from Pietrasanta, Italy, glowed like a beacon. Around me, the damp crowd started to smile and to talk.
Quinn says his inspiration came from the fact that there was 'no positive representation of disability in the history of public art'. Lapper says that she hopes the sculpture will 'make a difference ... it's inspirational. It puts disability and femininity and motherhood on the map. It's time to challenge people's perceptions of these things. I'm hopeful it can make a difference'.
Looking at the statue, I wondered whether she might not be right about this. I hate overt messages in art, which is why my favourite of all the pieces that have graced the fourth plinth is still Rachel Whiteread's wonderfully sly and elusive Monument
But what strikes you about Alison Lapper Pregnant are its elegant proportions, the implacable rightness of the way his subject sits there. It brings to mind the classical statues that grace our greatest museums, other sculptures from other times which also have, whether by accident or design, missing arms and legs.
Quinn's sculpture is very beautiful, and this is how it works on you, in insidious fashion. Lapper has written a book about her life, and knowing the details - that her mother periodically abandoned her; that she is now a feisty single mother - remind you of all that she has struggled against, of how vivid and extraordinary a person she must be.
But I don't think they come in to play as you gaze on her outsize image in Trafalgar Square, though as a fighter, she takes her rightful place alongside the soldiers on the other plinths, Charles Napier and Henry Havelock. No, by choosing to portray Lapper naked and pregnant, Quinn has given us an Everywoman. You look at her face, her breasts and her swollen belly, and only afterwards do you wonder about her limbs.
Alison Lapper Pregnant will be in situ for 18 months, when it will be replaced by Thomas Schutte's Hotel for the Birds. I hope this cycle of change continues for a very long time to come (the fourth plinth, designed by Charles Barry, was built in 1841; the funds to top it with an equestrian statue never materialised).
The arrival of Quinn's sculpture is an event, one that, through sheer verve and loveliness alone, seems to knock into a cocked hat the tired debate about what constitutes public art. This is public art, and let that be an end of it.
I would like to think that the plinth commissions will become a regular excitement, just like Tate Britain's magnificent Turbine Hall installations. It was great, watching Tate visitors 'sunbathe' beneath Olafur Eliasson's spectral Weather Project in 2003 and it will be good, too, when we see people eating their lunchtime sandwiches beside Alison Lapper Pregnant, occasionally glancing up at her determined jaw as they chew.
· My Life in My Hands by Alison Lapper with Guy Feldman is published by Simon & Schuster, priced £12.99
Dear C2- thank you for posting both articles, as you can see, I am not alone.I had seen pictures of Marc Quinn's maquette of the piece and had thought the subject matter - Lapper was born with no arms and shortened legs - too deliberately controversial, too feebly didactic and, as a result, rather banal.
But I should have known better. When it comes to sculpture, never underestimate the move from maquette to finished work.
It is very true, as I wrote previously, my first impression came from the photo of the main page from the website, and it was rather sickening impression, which changed with the closer inspection when I saw the access to the rest of the photos. I hope to read something from you-C2, after your visit of the actual work.When it comes to sculpture, never underestimate the move from maquette to finished work
As much as it is very true about sculpture-as a three-dimensional object to be reviewed with a help of photo, rather very risky task, same goes for the painting as well. As more complex in depth is the painting, as less the photo is capable of capturing the beauty and artistic value. Good example for that is the many layered, sophisticated coloring techniques of the Flemish painting. To have the real understanding and full appreciation-the presence of the original is a must. No prints and photos will help. As it has been said- "Ultimately, it is only the mind of the artist that can breathe life into any technique." I agree with the author of the article, but of course, I can agree only as far as my experience goes-since I've not seen the sculpture "live." I am still standing by my analysis of the composition, but also, perhaps the artist has given it a breath, life, which would be great.
bee
Thank you, Michael, for that breathtaking, exciting review of this beautiful sculpture.
The world where people live with disabilities NEEDS to become more integrated. It is an ongoing BATTLE to become so. The perceptions are often not even perceptible to the holder until awareness is forced. For all of society's 'progress,' this is one area that remains woefully behind. People aren't stuck in institutions like they once were, but some do remain in group homes, and many [no matter where they live] still remain invisible, ignored, or disdained when in public. That doesn't even touch the already, somewhat invisible disability of mental illness.
Even if it weren't a matter of this statue bringing awareness, the question remains of "What 'should' constitute public art?" "What should be the 'purpose' of public art?"
I'm so glad that the decision-makers on Alison Lapper Pregnant came to their ultimate conclusions. This statue serves those who have disabilities as a whole; it serves women as a whole; pregnant women as a whole; the world, that can only benefit by increased understanding, appreciation, and inclusion as a whole; and Alison Lapper as an individual. Sure sounds like it's met 'public-art' criteria to me.
Then, we can go on to the beauty of the sculptured piece, itself. Which this woman reviewer has......the vision of the white against the grey, in the terms she described it, just pops in my mind's eye. Stunning!
I'm sorry it will only be there for 18 months. Perhaps, I'll be able to arrange a trip, to London only, in that time ~ it was part of a vague plan already. I would love to see this statue in person.
~ Lizzy
The world where people live with disabilities NEEDS to become more integrated. It is an ongoing BATTLE to become so. The perceptions are often not even perceptible to the holder until awareness is forced. For all of society's 'progress,' this is one area that remains woefully behind. People aren't stuck in institutions like they once were, but some do remain in group homes, and many [no matter where they live] still remain invisible, ignored, or disdained when in public. That doesn't even touch the already, somewhat invisible disability of mental illness.
Even if it weren't a matter of this statue bringing awareness, the question remains of "What 'should' constitute public art?" "What should be the 'purpose' of public art?"
I'm so glad that the decision-makers on Alison Lapper Pregnant came to their ultimate conclusions. This statue serves those who have disabilities as a whole; it serves women as a whole; pregnant women as a whole; the world, that can only benefit by increased understanding, appreciation, and inclusion as a whole; and Alison Lapper as an individual. Sure sounds like it's met 'public-art' criteria to me.
Then, we can go on to the beauty of the sculptured piece, itself. Which this woman reviewer has......the vision of the white against the grey, in the terms she described it, just pops in my mind's eye. Stunning!
I'm sorry it will only be there for 18 months. Perhaps, I'll be able to arrange a trip, to London only, in that time ~ it was part of a vague plan already. I would love to see this statue in person.
~ Lizzy
Dear C2- I did not want to return to the thread and discussion, which has been murdered-however, when I thought about it, perhaps now was the time to somehow give an explanation to the surprise you expressed there is the quote
The possibility of appricciation by propoganda is clearly expressed by Eva Braun, who is posting under the name of Lizzytish, in the post above-
I am surprised you think "propaganda" is a possibility for my appreciation. So strange you compare it to war hero thinking. Trafalgar Square is the home of such persons, Nelson of course.
The possibility of appricciation by propoganda is clearly expressed by Eva Braun, who is posting under the name of Lizzytish, in the post above-
OK, C2- I tried to discuss art with you, I'll leave you to discuss the use of art for propaganda with Eva Braun.The world where aryan, German people live NEEDS To become more integrated. It is an ongoing BATTLE to become so. The perceptions are often not even perceptible to the holder until awareness is forced. For all of society's 'progress,' this is one area that remains woefully behind. The German, aryan race is not opressed and used by jews, like they once were, but some do remain in living together with jews, and many [no matter where they live] still remain invisible, ignored, or disdained when in public.That doesn't even touch the already, somewhat invisible but obvious superiority of the German people
Even if it weren't a matter of this statue bringing awareness, the question remains of "What 'should' constitute public art?" "What should be the 'purpose' of public art of a great, superior race?"
bee
bee, strange post. I have really enjoyed the development of this thread. Apart from the dull intervention of an idiot troll early on, It has been a stimulating discussion about sculpture. quite why you are now sounding so defensive/aggressive is a mystery...bee wrote:Dear C2- I did not want to return to the thread and discussion, which has been murdered-
OK, C2- I tried to discuss art with you, I'll leave you to discuss the use of art for propaganda with Eva Braun.
.....not to mention adding words to mine, as though they were. Words which say extreme things that have nothing to do with the way I think.
This butcher job, wherein two words of mine are bolded and capitalized, in the context of someone else's [meaning nothing, in that words are rarely used only once in their lifetime by those English-speaking people around the world]; and then others of mine are interspersed with whoever's words from wherever, shows nothing except an intent to villify in some bizarre fashion.
~ Lizzytysh vs. Eva Braun
This butcher job, wherein two words of mine are bolded and capitalized, in the context of someone else's [meaning nothing, in that words are rarely used only once in their lifetime by those English-speaking people around the world]; and then others of mine are interspersed with whoever's words from wherever, shows nothing except an intent to villify in some bizarre fashion.
~ Lizzytysh vs. Eva Braun
Dear C2- yes, you are right-it is silly to be upset with somebody's opinions, which are ever present anyhow, no matter who's expressing them. One cannot write the script for life as to how life needs to be played out, or a discussion, for that matter.bee, strange post. I have really enjoyed the development of this thread. Apart from the dull intervention of an idiot troll early on, It has been a stimulating discussion about sculpture. quite why you are now sounding so defensive/aggressive is a mystery...
I did enjoy the discussion as well. You put me up for quite a challenge and it was stimulating and lovely.
Cassirer writes- "Beyond the differences and characteristics of all things, therefore, man prospers in a place that is opposed to all things, at the focus of the world, at the fine center of everything: a universal mediator, who with his energies, nuances, forms, images, and intellectual capacities fills up the remaining vacuum of nature"
bee
bee wrote: - I did not want to return to the thread and discussion, which has been murdered-
...
The possibility of appricciation by propoganda is clearly expressed by Eva Braun, who is posting under the name of Lizzytish
Mike Godwin wrote: From: mnemo...@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: Nazis (was Re: Card's Article on Homosexuality
Date: 18 Aug 91 21:50:29 GMT
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Lines: 22
In article <1991Aug18.203938.6...@menudo.uh.edu>
j...@navier.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) writes:
>
>Who was it that said: "Whenver somebody starts mentioning Nazis on
>USENET, you know the discussion has gone on too long."? (Or something
>to that effect.)
I said it.
Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
--Mike
--
Mike Godwin, | "Someday, some way."
mnemo...@eff.org |
(617) 864-1550 | --Marshall Crenshaw
EFF, Cambridge, MA |
and its relation to to memes:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10 ... if_pr.html
~greg
You are quite a character -- sweet Greg, why don't you show some memes on your own? I've seen for a while, you've been playing with the links and sites, sometimes quite well,,,but tell me, where is that place, where your own soul resides? Are you so afraid to say a word, afraid that the others would think ill of you? Look at the social worker here-she takes her knickers down, shows the fool moon, and the people love it! She knows how to take care of sculptures and discussions, and LC, all together! Don't be afraid, baby! Go for it!and its relation to to memes:
bee