about critique

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:15 pm

Snow wrote:Critic2 wrote:
>But as I have mentioned before, in the immediate afterglow of actually completing a damn poem, we probably overate its value. Then we are tested by adverse comment about it. As time passes we realise the piece was never quite as good as we had originally thought.

Or, as anyone familiar with Ginsberg might say:
". . . who scribbled all night rocking and rolling over lofty incantations which in the yellow morning were stanzas of gibberish"

Ginsberg does tend to steal a lot of my original thoughts.

thanks for the quote, although I am really not impressed by his phrase "stanzas of gibberish". the S sound and the G sound do not combine well, for example "a snow full of Geoffreys", (although I suppose they go ok in "g-string").

Glory-Hog · Post by **Glory-Hog** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:06 pm

We simply cannot drag in dear old Ralph to clean up our mess. The genie is out of the bottle. Our reputation is ruined. By our own latest admission we are Hallmark Types. The poems don't like us any more.

But then, they never did.

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:28 pm

Glory-Hog wrote:We simply cannot drag in dear old Ralph to clean up our mess. The genie is out of the bottle. Our reputation is ruined. By our own latest admission we are Hallmark Types. The poems don't like us any more.

But then, they never did.

troll. plonk.

bee · Post by **bee** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:05 am

Bee, curious about which of 2 meanings you meant. plenty of the "harsh critique" was unfair, or plenty of the bitching?

Dealing with criticism of our creative work is a maturity test. But as I have mentioned before, in the immediate afterglow of actually completing a damn poem, we probably overate its value. Then we are tested by adverse comment about it. As time passes we realise the piece was never quite as good as we had originally thought.

Dear Critic2- What I meant as unfair was-plenty of bitching, what I noticed even now, after reading your post. So many times it is even hard to follow, what the bitching is about, just for the sakes of it?

Dealing with criticism of our creative work is a maturity test.

Right, most of the times. But then again, perhaps it is just from a point of view of a critic, who is mature and competent, expecting the same level from the ones whose work he's reviewing. Many times the works to be reviewed don't even qualify to be analyzed. If some sarcasm then has been offered, then often it has been taken for a criticism of the particular poem/work, which of course was not the case.

But as I have mentioned before, in the immediate afterglow of actually completing a damn poem, we probably overate its value. Then we are tested by adverse comment about it. As time passes we realize the piece was never quite as good as we had originally thought.[/quote

Sure, this happens in all arts, at all times. Some artists, as soon as the painting is dry, would varnish it, thus to make it presentable, but after a week or month, they would come to realization, now they have to use the retouch varnish to get the whole mess off, because the work is far from being presentable. Perhaps, it would take a year more to work on it till the time it could go out in public.
The-immediate afterglow-is a very precise term, because everyone has gone through that.
has happened to me, the completion of painting comes, I've been sitting and observing it, my heart is singing Alleluia, I would see myself sitting on the throne of triumph, I would come back into to studio in the middle of the night, not believing what a beauty I've created, but as the morning comes, the day sets in - how horrible is the truth of discovering, that all the glory just has been an immediate afterglow.
I guess, it is a matter of experience, to recognize the "afterglow" syndrome.

Nan · Post by **Nan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:40 am

But some critics enjoy being the one to bring on adverse criticism. These critics aren't interesting in helping anyone. They just relish their little cruel remarks. I think we have one of those kinds of critics here on the Forum.

Glory-Hog · Post by **Glory-Hog** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:37 am

Are you perhaps referring to us, Nan?

We are only cruel to be kind.

You must understand it is so much easier for us to condescend to criticize others then to offer our own Hallmark Cards for others to judge.

However, we are feverishly working on an offering for the short story comp. We're sure everyone will adore it. It will be a parody of course. Originality is beyond us.

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:27 pm

bee said

"It has happened to me, the completion of painting comes, I've been sitting and observing it, my heart is singing Alleluia, I would see myself sitting on the throne of triumph, I would come back into to studio in the middle of the night, not believing what a beauty I've created, but as the morning comes, the day sets in - how horrible is the truth of discovering, that all the glory just has been an immediate afterglow.
I guess, it is a matter of experience, to recognize the "afterglow" syndrome"

and I add

nicely explained about the painting. I had the same problem recently when I came down in the morning and realised I had mistaken the numbers 3 and 8 and consequently used the wrong colours.

btw let's hope it doesn't also happen with works of sculpture that have taken years to complete!

sculpture is in the news here in London as the long empty plinth in Trafalgar Square is now occupied by a work showing Allison Lapper Pregnant, a lady born without arms and other disabilities. It's almost fun to hear the usual morons reach for their "political correctness gone mad" phrase book.

bee · Post by **bee** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:57 pm

nicely explained about the painting. I had the same problem recently when I came down in the morning and realised I had mistaken the numbers 3 and 8 and consequently used the wrong colours.

Dear Critic2- I think that you're having a bit of problem not with the numbers, but how to use the quote. I have noticed, that you always quote the whole post for quote, perhaps just by clicking on the Quote tool above from the post you like to quote.
If you like to quote just a sentence or so, Highlight it, go to Edit/copy, go to back to your post reply box go Edit/paste -highlight it, than above is the Quote tool, clik on that, you'll have the quote.

C2, the "afterglow" happens to sculptors as well, is no secret-written in art history.

sculpture is in the news here in London as the long empty plinth in Trafalgar Square is now occupied by a work showing Allison Lapper Pregnant, a lady born without arms and other disabilities. It's almost fun to hear the usual morons reach for their "political correctness gone mad" phrase book.

Please, explain?

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:18 pm

yes, I often mess up this quotey thing. I promise I'll practice sometime soon.

here's a great link for Alison's sculpture

http://www.fourthplinth.co.uk/marc_quinn.htm

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:22 pm

I love that sculpture, and the attitude of inclusion, empowerment, and positive recognition for those with disabilities that comes with it.

~ Lizzy

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:40 pm

Mikey~

That link...

I am not 'getting it.' I mean I got to the site, but I do not get the message.
Being/becoming pregnant is not heroic, it is an act of nature as is being born with disabilities (of course thalidomide was not 'natural').

It seems to be sensational for the sake of sensationalism under the guise of being brave new ground.

How is this being accepted by the masses there in London?
There has got to be some big picture that I am totally missing...

Laurie

bee · Post by **bee** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:04 pm

Poor Mark Quinn and poor London public. Mental, intellectual convulsions to explain, to give meaning to tasteless exercise in sculpting.
Of course, we've seen the Venus de Milo-no hands have survived, but what a beauty, spiral beautiful composition, proportions, the lovely head.
Poor Quinn- that is what happens when one is pushing ideology, instead of exploring artistic matters.
I thought that the art of painting is in great danger, but it is quite obvious, that visual art in general goes down to hell.
Horrible.

bee · Post by **bee** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:28 pm

C2- funny that you brought up that sculpture subject. Just yesterday I was reading Panofsky's writing on Neoplatonic movement and Michelangelo.
"Through closing hollows and eliminating projections, the units, figures and groups, are condensed into a compact mass, which strictly isolates itself from the surrounding space. Michelangelo's alleged statement that a good sculpture could be rolled down a hill without breaking, apocryphal though it is, is rather good description of his artistic ideal. "

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:02 am

I'm glad that this discussion has started. I was telling my girls about it this evening and I am delighted that they can live in a country where a sculpture of a disabled pregnant lady is on display in such a famous place. I don't think it's sensationalism at all. I don't know enough to judge its real artisitc merit but I enjoy the piece very much. It's possible that I am influenced by reading parts of Alison Lapper's recently published autobiography.

I am really puzzled why you think it tasteless, bee. sod conventional beauty.

she is not heroic, like killers, but she had a tough tough life which she has lived bravely. and Laurie, "the masses" need educating, it's my duty to contribute to that!

right on, Lizzy!!!!

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:19 am

You know, we are all crippled in our own way. I think it condescending to pay tribue to someone purely for the fact they are disabled. That is how this appears to me. Being preggers is just a bonus point.

Jaded,
Laurie