The "you" and the "you"

jurica · Post by **jurica** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:21 pm

Insanitor wrote:I speak a Slavic language as my mother tongue and we have a similar formal and informal you, (the plural and singular).

where are you from? which language?

tomsakic · Post by **tomsakic** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:46 pm

That's why many Slavic translations of Cohen's poetry fail. How many times did we quarel is the YOU he, she, woman, lady, muse, or He, G-d etc. One translator said it's the richness of LC's poetry - you never know, and it could be all of it.

Like in The Law:
How many times did you call me, and I knew it was to late... - I always thought that G-d called him (the poet's voice, the narrator of the song). But the Bosnian translation said "How many times did you (she - the woman) called me..." [Koliko si me puta zvala...] I was very confused by such reading, then I saw that later it goes "If the moon has a sister, it's gotta be you" - so this time the woman (she). So the translator took that option and put it in perspective on previous verses, on the whole song. But I still don't think it's the case. That's going on in most of the Cohen's songs, that you changes from friend (let's say adresee / reader who can be both he and she, singular and plural), to she, and to He (G-d), and also from singular to plural. And that's impossible to translate in Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, all Slavic languages and I guess in many other languages. [You remains the same: ti, but verb changes, from "ti si me zvao" (you called me - male), "ti si me zvala" (you called me - she), "ti si me zvalo" (you called me - it /i.e. child; or non-live factor /then we translate "it called me"/)]. So what to do? That's why we get so many layers, like in Hallelujah or The Law.

So, this Bosnian "Law" is exclusively adressed to a woman - but I think that the adressee behind this you could change from verse to verse, keeping all of its possible meanings and associations, and that this translation is then very wrong.

greta · Post by **greta** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:57 pm

This post reminded me of a short story a professor told us in a lecture of folklore.
A folklorist went to Australia to collect folklore from German immigrants who had moved there. The people refused to speak in Greman andu sed Englih instead. Later it turned out that they used English only because the vere unceratain if the should adress the interviewer as you (du) or you(Sie)
....

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:01 pm

Tchocolatl wrote:
"Somehow je t'aime bien is always followed by mais, isn't it?"

Yep. Spoken or underlying. Or just this "je t'aime bien" means "I do not love you". (I like you). But even "je t'aime" could be "I like you". "Je t'aime beaucoup" Oh this is the worst! this is the snake that bites its tail : "beaucoup" is the "coco prize" to comfort you not to have hit the jack pot. So, it is easier with "like" - no mistake or fantasy possible.

Geesh! How on earth did the French get such a reputation as great lovers when they can't even say it right

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:33 pm

Let me quote Tom about the hypothesis :

One translator said it's the richness of LC's poetry - you never know, and it could be all of it.

Just retain, in this particular case, the "you never know and it could be all of it." It may be this affair that lead to talk of love in a sweet and elusive manner that let a lot of place to imagination, interpretation and to the energy itself.

In a word this is more romantic.

Insanitor · Post by **Insanitor** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:07 pm

Jurica

Slovakia - I speak slovakian (vychodniarske!). My Dad is from outside Kosice in the east. They came to Australia when I was a baby and I learnt the language from them (my parents). Whenever I have visited Slovakia, everyone laughs because I had no idea there was a formal way to address people

Tom

I loved your example of the confusion of Slavic grammar - it made me remember a Croatian "aunty" - she has lived in Australia for 20 years and hates English, when she speaks in it she calls her husband "she" and when she met her daughters boyfriend the first time she said "IT looks nice"

Linmag

THe French can get away with anything because of their lovely accent!

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:43 pm

[quote="linmag"]Hmmmm ~ maybe I don't envy you the tu/vous option after all. I just don't feel comfortable addressing a complete stranger as tu.

I do not either linmag but WE DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE because this is the way we learnt (culture

) but if we had not learnt this way (?)

Geesh! How on earth did the French get such a reputation as great lovers when they can't even say it right ...

all reputations should be studied linmag

Finally.....we do not have doubts about "I" but a lot about "you"...

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:34 pm

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

Buddha

I like your signature, Insanitor

. Very beautiful as the truth itself (would say an ancient Greek

)

If only the truth could be seen as often an regularly as the sun and the moon...

In some cases, the truth cames too late for the good of everyone. I am far from the Buddha wise state of mind and find this regrettable. Ah... I'll look at the stars in the meantime...

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:45 am

Sandra wrote:
linmag wrote:Hmmmm ~ maybe I don't envy you the tu/vous option after all. I just don't feel comfortable addressing a complete stranger as tu.

I do not either linmag but WE DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE because this is the way we learnt (culture ) but if we had not learnt this way (?)

Or if we (or at least I) had been part of the culture and had changed with it gradually rather than making short visits. It's all a question of what you're used to, I suppose.

tomsakic · Post by **tomsakic** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:50 am

Good point, Greta - we have the same problem - is it you in familiar tone (singular: ti, in German du) or You of respect (plural: Vi, in German Sie), as you say to older people and people you don't know yet. It's funny to watch movies on TV and follow the subtitles: many times two firends speak on Sie (I'll use German rather than Croatian so you all can understand - I presume that german or France are knwon here at least as English; I learned German also), and then two bussinesman talk as brothers, on du

On the other hand, most movies are translated from transcripts (translator doesn't see the picture actually) - so male and woman speaks like they're both male (what entertains most of audience in cinemas

), or - watch this - male speaks like a woman, and she like a man (like recently in Closer

)

Nazaree · Post by **Nazaree** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:41 pm

While we're on the subject of love... Any Italian speakers out there? A long time ago an Italian friend told me that the Italian expression for "I love you" is "ti (te? not sure) voglio bene," which means, quite literally, "I come without evil intentions" or "I wish you well." It's always puzzled me. Is this true? Is there no other way of saying "I love you" in Italian? How about "I love you" in Spanish--"te quiero" (I want you)... In light of the discussion on "je t'aime (bien mais/beaucoup)" do you not sense a strange linguistic discomfort around love?

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:14 pm

Hello Nazaree.....!
The most coincident words for "I love you" in spanish is "Yo te amo"
("yo te quiero" is related with more general affection...

I think words are fragile means of communication and very often we just fail for misunderstanding of WORDS when we want to get closer to someone...
I quote then again "The little Prince":
"Words are source of misunderstanding"

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:23 pm

Nazaree - I don't speak Italian either, but I thought the Italian for I love you was 'ti amo'. Or am I getting confused with good old Latin amo, amas amat etc.? If I had tried to translate 'ti voglio bene' I would have linked it to the French 'je veux bien', which means 'I am willing' or 'I don't mind if I do', and is lukewarm to say the least!

There's no wonder that human relationships provide such fertile ground for artists. Words are such an inadequate means of expression.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:44 am

This is where I find the genius of Leonard Cohen : he masters words, and he knows in the same time that they are not enough.

As well as all the musical tecnics.

This is why he said to an Anjani - in this example - to "be" this women who are wrecked.

This has to be with emotion. The intellectual perfection would never be able to carry them. This energy is talking to energy only. That's great.

Anne-Marie · Post by **Anne-Marie** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:38 am

greta wrote:This post reminded me of a short story a professor told us in a lecture of folklore.
A folklorist went to Australia to collect folklore from German immigrants who had moved there. The people refused to speak in Greman andu sed Englih instead. Later it turned out that they used English only because the vere unceratain if the should adress the interviewer as you (du) or you(Sie)
....

That was a pretty pathetic lecture eh. Almost like a joke with no punch line.