You know, a piece can be crude, but still be good.
That poem is (sorry) horrible; it's probably the worst thing I have ever read on this site, and I am upset that I stumbled upon it.
Perhaps it's better in Dutch, but the English translation needs some work.
Natalie
Creation
Hi Kush,
Actually, I've [personally] found Natalie to be very insightful and great with concepts, insights, and words. However, her conclusion here I don't happen to agree with. Not that you meant your Bertrand Russell quote as anything other than a broad brush [i.e. not to say that she's "stupid," but rather that she might be taking too much of a judgemental stand at this point....particularly after saying that something can be crude, but still be good. However, for me, the key is in her comment that, "Perhaps it's better in Dutch." That comment leads me to believe that her primary concern may be with the English words that Peter happened to choose or settle on to convey what he was originally saying. As I know you already know, there can be many powerful connotations with particular words that only someone living in the particular country will be aware of. That's pretty much what I was saying, as well, in that I also feel its English translation needs some work. Now, if that's not what she meant or was getting at, then I'd be interested as to why she feels that it's "horrible" or the "worst thing" she's read on this site. Certainly shocking it was, I couldn't agree more, if she'd said that.
~Lizzytysh
I'm also very much wondering, Natalie, how your Leonard Cohen birthday celebration went!
Actually, I've [personally] found Natalie to be very insightful and great with concepts, insights, and words. However, her conclusion here I don't happen to agree with. Not that you meant your Bertrand Russell quote as anything other than a broad brush [i.e. not to say that she's "stupid," but rather that she might be taking too much of a judgemental stand at this point....particularly after saying that something can be crude, but still be good. However, for me, the key is in her comment that, "Perhaps it's better in Dutch." That comment leads me to believe that her primary concern may be with the English words that Peter happened to choose or settle on to convey what he was originally saying. As I know you already know, there can be many powerful connotations with particular words that only someone living in the particular country will be aware of. That's pretty much what I was saying, as well, in that I also feel its English translation needs some work. Now, if that's not what she meant or was getting at, then I'd be interested as to why she feels that it's "horrible" or the "worst thing" she's read on this site. Certainly shocking it was, I couldn't agree more, if she'd said that.
~Lizzytysh
I'm also very much wondering, Natalie, how your Leonard Cohen birthday celebration went!
Celebration
When you kneel below me
and in both your hands
hold my manhood like a sceptre,
When you wrap your tongue
about the amber jewel
and urge my blessing.
I understand those Roman girls
who danced around a shaft of stone
and kissed it till the stone was warm.
Kneel, love, a thousand feet below me,
so far I can barely see your mouth and hands
perform the ceremony,
Kneel till I topple to your back
with a groan, like those gods on the roof
that Samson pulled down.
Leonard Cohen
p.s. I'm not trying to compare Peter's effort to LCs but cutting through LC's sophisticated wordplay, the basic idea is pretty similar.
When you kneel below me
and in both your hands
hold my manhood like a sceptre,
When you wrap your tongue
about the amber jewel
and urge my blessing.
I understand those Roman girls
who danced around a shaft of stone
and kissed it till the stone was warm.
Kneel, love, a thousand feet below me,
so far I can barely see your mouth and hands
perform the ceremony,
Kneel till I topple to your back
with a groan, like those gods on the roof
that Samson pulled down.
Leonard Cohen
p.s. I'm not trying to compare Peter's effort to LCs but cutting through LC's sophisticated wordplay, the basic idea is pretty similar.
I agree, Kush, and see the primary issue as being one of semantics and word choice, things that the translation process could easily muddle. I've always liked Leonard's "Celebration," as well. When I first started reading it here, my very initial thought was that you had offered Peter some Americanized suggestions, then quickly realized that it was Leonard's poem. In concept, quite similar, in fact.
~Lizzytysh
~Lizzytysh
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
The perspective, Natalie
Now, I've felt that I might not participate in this disgussion, but I've decided to do it anyhow, sorry if anyone finds that tasteless(also).
I think that part of the problem of commenting a text is the question of what perspective you are reading it from.
If you Natalie have a perspective (and I cannot know if you do) that:
1) oralsex is a disgusting and awful thing for anyone to participate in, then I'm afraid that my text must have been a pretty upsetting experience for you to read.
2) If you feel that sex is a private matter and therefore should not be displayed in a public forum, well then again I understand your reaction.
If you have the perspective of 1) or 2), then for gods sake, dont read Leonard Cohens "Beautiful Loosers", this text is pretty tame compared to the content of that book.
If the reason for your reaction is that its badly written (not considering the content) well I might agree with you on that point.
Best wishes
Peter
I think that part of the problem of commenting a text is the question of what perspective you are reading it from.
If you Natalie have a perspective (and I cannot know if you do) that:
1) oralsex is a disgusting and awful thing for anyone to participate in, then I'm afraid that my text must have been a pretty upsetting experience for you to read.
2) If you feel that sex is a private matter and therefore should not be displayed in a public forum, well then again I understand your reaction.
If you have the perspective of 1) or 2), then for gods sake, dont read Leonard Cohens "Beautiful Loosers", this text is pretty tame compared to the content of that book.
If the reason for your reaction is that its badly written (not considering the content) well I might agree with you on that point.
Best wishes
Peter
After reading the above posts I still hold that "Creation" is salacious. Now those of us who think the poem prurient did not say that sex is dirty, demeaning or disgusting. It is the poem which is lewd, coarse, vulgar.
And silly.
Come on folks...how can you possibly praise a poem that begins:
"With a rose in your butt..."
eeey
And silly.
Come on folks...how can you possibly praise a poem that begins:
"With a rose in your butt..."
eeey
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
I agree with eeey: writing poetry (as opposed to prose) presents many minefields. Body bits is just one of them. Sensitivity and imagination are at a premium: Peter has employed neither in his poem.
Don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting that writing prose is devoid of danger. It's just that in poetry, every word counts.
Andrew.
Don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting that writing prose is devoid of danger. It's just that in poetry, every word counts.
Andrew.
Both eeey and Andrew offer more evidence that language differences may be a factor, as when it comes to sexual/body part issues [already noted previously], romantic words are not readily available. To attempt to do a more "realistic" vs. euphimistic poem, perhaps unwittingly, parachute drops an English-second-language person dead center of that minefield. Had English-native-language "R." [who no longer posts here] put such a poem here, it likely would never have altered course from the first 3 verses and continued in that vein till the end, and all awkward references would have been by intent. However, being already familiar with Peter's other writing [to the limited extent that I am], I've seen lots of sensitivity. A rose is a beautiful word and image, butt however is not. Putting the two together is awkward at best! Plus, the image itself is very confusing. I still see it as an unfamiliarity with connotations and slang usage in English.
'With a rose in your butt'.....how about a rose tattoo on the butt (quite common) ? How else would you put that information ??
I have never praised or villified the poem in any of my posts....but I do not find anything objectionable or disgusting at all in it. I guess it depends on our various backgrounds and cultures what we consider sensitive poetry or not. In some cultures a poem that has the word 'kiss' in it would be banned and the author put in jail. "Disgusting, salaciuos, Western influence...". Why not ask yourself why you consider a poem to be prurient and salacious and dirty ? Is it coz' that is what you have been brought up to believe ? Is that the rules ? That graphic depiction of sexuality in art, sculpture and prose is fine but NOT poetry ? Poetry has be beautiful words. Well, that is not good enough for me and anyway, why not change the rules or why go nuts if somebody else decides to change the rules ?
At least I do not find it boring which a lot of very conventional poems are....same old recycled material. IMHO. I could point to some on this very section but I'll leave those egos alone.
Ha...somehow you guys remind me of LC's 'A Singer Must Die'..a song written for his critics.
And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty,
you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty.
Your vision is right, my vision is wrong,
I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.
BTW, a line that comes later in the song is 'knee in your balls'....not much different from 'rose in your butt', huh ?? LC also uses the phrase 'cardboard and piss' in one of the songs in TNS. Very sensitive , eh ?
That's it for the moment....
I have never praised or villified the poem in any of my posts....but I do not find anything objectionable or disgusting at all in it. I guess it depends on our various backgrounds and cultures what we consider sensitive poetry or not. In some cultures a poem that has the word 'kiss' in it would be banned and the author put in jail. "Disgusting, salaciuos, Western influence...". Why not ask yourself why you consider a poem to be prurient and salacious and dirty ? Is it coz' that is what you have been brought up to believe ? Is that the rules ? That graphic depiction of sexuality in art, sculpture and prose is fine but NOT poetry ? Poetry has be beautiful words. Well, that is not good enough for me and anyway, why not change the rules or why go nuts if somebody else decides to change the rules ?
At least I do not find it boring which a lot of very conventional poems are....same old recycled material. IMHO. I could point to some on this very section but I'll leave those egos alone.
Ha...somehow you guys remind me of LC's 'A Singer Must Die'..a song written for his critics.
And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty,
you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty.
Your vision is right, my vision is wrong,
I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.
BTW, a line that comes later in the song is 'knee in your balls'....not much different from 'rose in your butt', huh ?? LC also uses the phrase 'cardboard and piss' in one of the songs in TNS. Very sensitive , eh ?
That's it for the moment....
Last edited by Kush on Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A rose tattoo, of course.....i.e. a rose on, instead of rose in! Interpretation differences. Thanks, Kush....it didn't even occur to me. I also think you've drawn on Leonard very appropriately here, with the additional good points you've made. Also, if they want to see "disgusting and salacious," I know at least one direction I can point them in.....and it nowhere-near parallels Leonard or Peter.
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
A rose on or a rose in
well Im sorry, the text goes IN, and not ON. You have to imagine the picture of a rose in a ladys behind. All thorns offcourse have been safely removed.
But now as the two goes along with the project that they are engaged in, the rose will scent the air and combine the present feeling of something truly sacred and something truly lustful.
Best wishes
Peter
But now as the two goes along with the project that they are engaged in, the rose will scent the air and combine the present feeling of something truly sacred and something truly lustful.
Best wishes
Peter
Well, I was hoping we might hear from the poet on this. Thanks for the clarification, even if it does perplex me a bit as to the particulars 
~ perhaps one of those better-to-be-discussed-out-of-the-public-eye matters? Kush? Any input? Roses are considered a "sacred" [and show up in Buddhist depictions of various godlike entities a lot], as well as sensual, flower.
~ perhaps one of those better-to-be-discussed-out-of-the-public-eye matters? Kush? Any input? Roses are considered a "sacred" [and show up in Buddhist depictions of various godlike entities a lot], as well as sensual, flower.