Welcome to the forum, matt23,24 and matt25 (see you in the pretentious section, he?).
Maybe they were too serious and stiff in those time (I mean about themselves and their kind of social order), because they did crucify Him because He was disturbing all this a lot. But even dead he never keep quiet, so maybe this is the message : you can shoot at the messenger if you are not happy about the news but ey! that does not change a bit to the reality. Like it or not. It seems that a lot liked it, and still do, however, yes, Churches and/or religions and/or dogma or not.
Jung had an interesting theory about the cleavage of the reality into bad and best by human minds. He also said that we have a psychic pattern that developps into the Self (state of perfect consciousness not a state of perfection), in a process called individuation. A natural process like the DNA code, let say. So live, have fun, fights, and wait and see. But I think the process could be more efficient if we are taking care of it, aware of it (conscious about it).
should lesbians adopt children?
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Tchocolatl
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starshaped
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- Location: Carlisle, England
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peter danielsen
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The point of the christian Idea of Sin is that we are never aware our sin. We have the will to power and self-righteousness, and therefore always see the spinter in our brothers eye and not the balk in our own.
This is why democracy and christianity go together. Democry is the great symbol of the west. Its the symbol for a just and fair society with no flaws. However we know that the drive towards democracy will never end, democracy is a symbol, it doesnt exist anywhere, its an ongoing process.
This is why Leonard Cohen sings :"its comming from the feel, that it aint exactly real, or its real but it aint exactly there"
The connection to christianity is the concept of sin . The christian person is being told by the gospel that he/she is a sinner and therefore not able to do what is just. He can never sit back and claim he has done what is right. He has to try to do right, but he cannot sit back and claim he has done so. And since this is the case with himself he has to do the same also for the other person, he has to treat the other persons possible wrongdoing with mercy.
To realise that a society cannot be put together in an all just way, as the muslims claim, is a christian thought, and so out of christianity grows the concept of moderne democracy
This is why democracy and christianity go together. Democry is the great symbol of the west. Its the symbol for a just and fair society with no flaws. However we know that the drive towards democracy will never end, democracy is a symbol, it doesnt exist anywhere, its an ongoing process.
This is why Leonard Cohen sings :"its comming from the feel, that it aint exactly real, or its real but it aint exactly there"
The connection to christianity is the concept of sin . The christian person is being told by the gospel that he/she is a sinner and therefore not able to do what is just. He can never sit back and claim he has done what is right. He has to try to do right, but he cannot sit back and claim he has done so. And since this is the case with himself he has to do the same also for the other person, he has to treat the other persons possible wrongdoing with mercy.
To realise that a society cannot be put together in an all just way, as the muslims claim, is a christian thought, and so out of christianity grows the concept of moderne democracy
Last edited by peter danielsen on Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter- however, if u say that christian idea=democracy, yes
Church-democracy-no.
About the Lightning post- well,
if one starts to think about the rules and regulations of today, one shalt not tell Martha Stuart about a good buy on Wallstreet, one shalt not squander the moneys of the sharholders- day're to be stoned on TV and put in jail, one shalt not ride his car unregistered, one shalt not drive the car without an insurance, etc.etc. and in 900 years one would read that- they probably would wonder~ what that was all about- juss' rules and regulations of the day.
It does not have much to do with the substance, however cleverly put together
Church-democracy-no.
About the Lightning post- well,
if one starts to think about the rules and regulations of today, one shalt not tell Martha Stuart about a good buy on Wallstreet, one shalt not squander the moneys of the sharholders- day're to be stoned on TV and put in jail, one shalt not ride his car unregistered, one shalt not drive the car without an insurance, etc.etc. and in 900 years one would read that- they probably would wonder~ what that was all about- juss' rules and regulations of the day.
It does not have much to do with the substance, however cleverly put together
bee
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Byron
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Should lesbians adopt children?
Why shouldn't lesbians adopt children?
The question is really 'should lesbians be allowed to adopt children?'
Which raises the question, 'Who is it who has the power to allow lesbians to adopt children?'
How do we as a society choose the people who will decide if lesbians should be allowed to adopt children?
The usual route for such decisions to be made is through the political processes, whereby our elected representatives debate the issues encompassing the points in question.
Who decides who will be available to be able to discuss the points in question with their fellow politicians? Us.
But politicians are not expert witnesses in such matters. They are self seeking ambitious individuals who throw themselves into the ballot box competition, in order to gain some modicum of power over their fellow men.
The politicians call on the evidence of all and any sundry group of opinionated and entrenched men and women who have conflicting views with other similarly self serving groups.
We ask the experts to give their considered opinions. The experts cannot agree amongst themselves about the right and proper course of thought and actions. So how can they expect the jury, which is made up of politically motivated individuals, to agree? If the experts cannot agree, it is quite clearly foolhardy to expect the amateurs to agree.
We are left with a situation in which each interested party (Individual or grouping), continues to espouse the views which they have held and which only rarely are reconsidered in the light of new evidence. But evidence is like science. It is an ever evolving piece of cerebral gymnastics.
Should lesbians adopt children?
Yes and no.
Blind people get illnesses the same as everyone else. Deaf people are subject to the same mental and psychotic illnesses as hearing people. A one legged man can get a headache in the same way as you or your neighbour.
My point ?
No individual has the monopoly on adequate or exemplary parenthood. All individuals are prone to all the afflictions of all other individuals. Each case must be taken on its own merits. We have to be careful that the people to whom we entrust the decisions, are capable of making good decisions.
When I see a one legged, black, lesbian judge who grew up in an inner city ghetto sitting as a High Court Judge, I will know that at long last, we have arrived at a judicial system which will be capable, able and entrusted to make good judgements on whether lesbians should adopt children.
Until then, we are at the mercy of self- interested, self-serving, pressure groups that will continue to fail to listen to any other group without tempering their own arguments in the fire of open discourse. Too much talk takes place behind closed doors. None of us is living in a democracy. We are all existing according to the accepted social mores of our time.
One day, the question we have been asked here, will be looked back on with a disbelief that such a question even needed to be asked. We think we are civilised but we are only going through the motions.
Regards. Byron.
Why shouldn't lesbians adopt children?
The question is really 'should lesbians be allowed to adopt children?'
Which raises the question, 'Who is it who has the power to allow lesbians to adopt children?'
How do we as a society choose the people who will decide if lesbians should be allowed to adopt children?
The usual route for such decisions to be made is through the political processes, whereby our elected representatives debate the issues encompassing the points in question.
Who decides who will be available to be able to discuss the points in question with their fellow politicians? Us.
But politicians are not expert witnesses in such matters. They are self seeking ambitious individuals who throw themselves into the ballot box competition, in order to gain some modicum of power over their fellow men.
The politicians call on the evidence of all and any sundry group of opinionated and entrenched men and women who have conflicting views with other similarly self serving groups.
We ask the experts to give their considered opinions. The experts cannot agree amongst themselves about the right and proper course of thought and actions. So how can they expect the jury, which is made up of politically motivated individuals, to agree? If the experts cannot agree, it is quite clearly foolhardy to expect the amateurs to agree.
We are left with a situation in which each interested party (Individual or grouping), continues to espouse the views which they have held and which only rarely are reconsidered in the light of new evidence. But evidence is like science. It is an ever evolving piece of cerebral gymnastics.
Should lesbians adopt children?
Yes and no.
Blind people get illnesses the same as everyone else. Deaf people are subject to the same mental and psychotic illnesses as hearing people. A one legged man can get a headache in the same way as you or your neighbour.
My point ?
No individual has the monopoly on adequate or exemplary parenthood. All individuals are prone to all the afflictions of all other individuals. Each case must be taken on its own merits. We have to be careful that the people to whom we entrust the decisions, are capable of making good decisions.
When I see a one legged, black, lesbian judge who grew up in an inner city ghetto sitting as a High Court Judge, I will know that at long last, we have arrived at a judicial system which will be capable, able and entrusted to make good judgements on whether lesbians should adopt children.
Until then, we are at the mercy of self- interested, self-serving, pressure groups that will continue to fail to listen to any other group without tempering their own arguments in the fire of open discourse. Too much talk takes place behind closed doors. None of us is living in a democracy. We are all existing according to the accepted social mores of our time.
One day, the question we have been asked here, will be looked back on with a disbelief that such a question even needed to be asked. We think we are civilised but we are only going through the motions.
Regards. Byron.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Byron, nothing is much new in this world-regarding morals. juss sometimes~
- remember Sparta- where the boys at age 7 were taken from mothers to the military camp, where they started the bootcamp training and also to serve an older guy in every way- the Sparta government legal policy of pedophilia- nobody would suggest there was something wrong with that~
and everybody knows the deal is rotten-
juss' life- what ever cards we have on our hands, got to go with it
- remember Sparta- where the boys at age 7 were taken from mothers to the military camp, where they started the bootcamp training and also to serve an older guy in every way- the Sparta government legal policy of pedophilia- nobody would suggest there was something wrong with that~
and everybody knows the deal is rotten-
juss' life- what ever cards we have on our hands, got to go with it
bee
Byron, the subject I put there shouldn´t be that if lesbians shoud adopt children.(that would be other case)........I am sorry if I was not clear in that point........and that is why I explained the case.....
because if you read what I was asking was the specific case of a mother with 3 daughters of 3, 5 and 9 years old of her former marriage with her husband that ask for the tuitions of the girls and she is now living with other a woman as her couple. Then what I asked was if those girls wouldn´t in some way be having a strange kind of model of a mother ?????????????????????
because if you read what I was asking was the specific case of a mother with 3 daughters of 3, 5 and 9 years old of her former marriage with her husband that ask for the tuitions of the girls and she is now living with other a woman as her couple. Then what I asked was if those girls wouldn´t in some way be having a strange kind of model of a mother ?????????????????????
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Tchocolatl
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Byron, Nice signature! 
Yes peter I clearly see that there is things that I can not see, so I guess this is the balk in my eyes, each time. I look pretentious, I am not. Does not mean that I can not say "Ey! dear you have a spinter in your eyes, just there..." when I saw it.
Bee, I admire the way you are saying some facts ot reality I would not have dare to mentioned, here. I heard some gay community representatives themselves, warning that, sometimes, gay male couple may use the child as a sexual mate and to be careful about this. Now, pedophilia is a bigger taboo than homosexuality. We all know that priests, religious leaders of all sorts, teachers, doctors, coaches and parents (both male and female, homo and hetero) did it to children, under the secret, so I dont' say here that this is because of the sexual orientation. But to remain silent about this in the name of Politically correctness fashion would be stupid.
Now, Sandra your questions was answered since a long time now. And even many times more than one.
Noboby knows what makes exactly the "hardware" for good parents, we only know the software : that it takes, love, respect ang good caring of the basic needs of shelter, food and all these things. But parents are not the only responsibles, the society where they live influence the children in a strongest way than just parents, and this mean all of us, until our dead. Like it or not.
Yes peter I clearly see that there is things that I can not see, so I guess this is the balk in my eyes, each time. I look pretentious, I am not. Does not mean that I can not say "Ey! dear you have a spinter in your eyes, just there..." when I saw it.
Bee, I admire the way you are saying some facts ot reality I would not have dare to mentioned, here. I heard some gay community representatives themselves, warning that, sometimes, gay male couple may use the child as a sexual mate and to be careful about this. Now, pedophilia is a bigger taboo than homosexuality. We all know that priests, religious leaders of all sorts, teachers, doctors, coaches and parents (both male and female, homo and hetero) did it to children, under the secret, so I dont' say here that this is because of the sexual orientation. But to remain silent about this in the name of Politically correctness fashion would be stupid.
Now, Sandra your questions was answered since a long time now. And even many times more than one.
Noboby knows what makes exactly the "hardware" for good parents, we only know the software : that it takes, love, respect ang good caring of the basic needs of shelter, food and all these things. But parents are not the only responsibles, the society where they live influence the children in a strongest way than just parents, and this mean all of us, until our dead. Like it or not.
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"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
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Tchocolatl
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mmmmm I try to think what would I had thought if I had had such a strange family.....(?) I myself was raised in a non typical family with mother , father , sisters and brothers. Then I know how it is to "feel different" because you are not in similar conditions with the majority.
A difference that in my case was that I lived with my grandmother and some aunts and cousins ( several people) but I felt I was different in some important part of my life and I felt bad when I was asked Where is your mother? or Where is your father? or Why dont you live with your parents? .......... I had no explanation for that and I felt very bad.
Now I know all but when you are a child it is difficult to understand that world of adults. and what makes the difference is the way other peers look at you....as if you were an alien.
society has changed and is changing but adults do not put themselves "in the children feet" In this particular case I am talking about I think it would be very difficult for those girls.......
A difference that in my case was that I lived with my grandmother and some aunts and cousins ( several people) but I felt I was different in some important part of my life and I felt bad when I was asked Where is your mother? or Where is your father? or Why dont you live with your parents? .......... I had no explanation for that and I felt very bad.
Now I know all but when you are a child it is difficult to understand that world of adults. and what makes the difference is the way other peers look at you....as if you were an alien.
society has changed and is changing but adults do not put themselves "in the children feet" In this particular case I am talking about I think it would be very difficult for those girls.......
