~ and your job sounds great 
! Though, it likely has its downsides, as well.Users who never or rarely post
I would really liked to have been more mysterious 
Rock Rose~
I have revealed my birth name here before, also. What I had meant to convey was that if a person has a complex about anything, no amount of anonymity will mask it -- or help to overcome it, whether or not they use their given name etc.
I remember hearing, also, that it's not that people really 'change' as they get old(er) 'into' outspoken or obnoxious individuals, so much as they simply become more overtly what they really always were, covertly.
It's when people lose (or never had) a sense of humour, that it's a problem. Some can hide a very nasty side beneath a show of 'humour', which can fool (and take advantage of) many, but their tendency for schadenfreude doesn't go unnoticed for too long.
~Makera
I have revealed my birth name here before, also. What I had meant to convey was that if a person has a complex about anything, no amount of anonymity will mask it -- or help to overcome it, whether or not they use their given name etc.
I remember hearing, also, that it's not that people really 'change' as they get old(er) 'into' outspoken or obnoxious individuals, so much as they simply become more overtly what they really always were, covertly.
It's when people lose (or never had) a sense of humour, that it's a problem. Some can hide a very nasty side beneath a show of 'humour', which can fool (and take advantage of) many, but their tendency for schadenfreude doesn't go unnoticed for too long.
~Makera
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Rock Rose and Makera.
A few years ago while I was seeing my GP about my own health, I asked if people changed their personalities as they became old. I had a particular person in mind at the time who was creating some really difficult situations in the extended family. My doctor told me that as people grew older, the personality traits which they displayed in earlier life became more pronounced. A happy go lucky type became even more jolly. A bad tempered type, or a moody type of person, became more so as they became old.
I left my doctor's surgery with a deep sense of forboding.
His words were indeed prophetic!!!!!
Byron 'sends his regards.'
A few years ago while I was seeing my GP about my own health, I asked if people changed their personalities as they became old. I had a particular person in mind at the time who was creating some really difficult situations in the extended family. My doctor told me that as people grew older, the personality traits which they displayed in earlier life became more pronounced. A happy go lucky type became even more jolly. A bad tempered type, or a moody type of person, became more so as they became old.
I left my doctor's surgery with a deep sense of forboding.
His words were indeed prophetic!!!!!
Byron 'sends his regards.'
What happens to the capacity for growth, and change, with these theories? Are we locked in to our natures? What about the person who begins life with optimism, and in the course of experiences and disappointments, tragedies, and whatever, shuts down and becomes embittered? What about the person who begins life feeling they've gotten a raw deal, and learns gratitude and acceptance along the way, and through their new way of viewing the world, draw a higher level of experiences to them?
~ Elizabeth
~ Elizabeth
That's the key, exactly, Liz! 
We always have free will; the choice is always ours. Do we want to be 'reactors' or 'responders'? It's so easy to react, from ego or emotion. The trick is discovering/deciding what we want to Be as a person: In control of others and/or everything outside of ourselves? Or, in control of ourselves and our attitudes towards others and the world?
Some sage said ~"A man can have no greater dominion than that over his own soul."
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."~Tolstoy
"Nature's mighty law is change."~ Robert Burns
Oops, I'm 'quoting' again, must be my 'affliction'. 
Love,
Makera
We always have free will; the choice is always ours. Do we want to be 'reactors' or 'responders'? It's so easy to react, from ego or emotion. The trick is discovering/deciding what we want to Be as a person: In control of others and/or everything outside of ourselves? Or, in control of ourselves and our attitudes towards others and the world? Some sage said ~"A man can have no greater dominion than that over his own soul."
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."~Tolstoy
"Nature's mighty law is change."~ Robert Burns
Oops, I'm 'quoting' again, must be my 'affliction'.
Love,
Makera
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Liz and Mak, you are talking about people as if, they are like you and have the intellect to review their life and carefully consider the deal, which life and fate has thrown their way. I am talking about people who do not have the mental capacity to step outside themselves for even a moment, or take a long hard look at their life and how they can change it for the better. Or, have the capacity to look back on where they have gone wrong, or where they had made a good long term decision.
I cannot go into personal details.
I can say that a particular person would always look for someone to blame if anything at all went wrong. That the doctors should always have a pill for whatever illness that person was suffering from. A person who would not listen to reason when they were a danger to themself and to others. I'm talking about a person who was in 'middle age' with all of their faculties. A person who had suffered under the blitz of the Second World War. A person who believed everything that they read in the newspapers, because it was there, in black and white, for everyone to see. A person who declared they were open-minded but had great difficulty in talking to catholics. A peron who was selfish and demanding and at times down right devious. A person who couldn't accept that someone in their own family was in a far worse state of health than they thought they were. A person who thought that a bruise on their knee was far worse than chronic ulcerative colitis in a family member. Telling the sufferer that they didn't know what real pain was.
I have a lot of anger still within me, because I found that the nastiness of middle age turned into the selfish emotional blackmail of old age. My doctor said that most bad tempered people do not mellow with old age. They just got nastier.
Family and friends bent over backwards to help and received cold disdain for their efforts. No-one was acting out of ulterior motives because we all wanted to keep everyone happy. One person poisoned the hard work, efforts, sacrifices, and good will of their closest family. Had it been Alzhiemers we could have negotiated our way through the turmoil. It wasn't that though. It was old fashioned bloody mindedness. I've told my lot, if I start to get like that, then hand me the bottle of Pernod and the lemonade, and the small bottle of pills in the top cupboard. I will refuse to stay where I'm not wanted, for whatever reason. I am serious here and not being flippant. I have read Leonards words and I too face each morning the best way I can. I will not be a burden and I will go in peace.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
I cannot go into personal details.
I can say that a particular person would always look for someone to blame if anything at all went wrong. That the doctors should always have a pill for whatever illness that person was suffering from. A person who would not listen to reason when they were a danger to themself and to others. I'm talking about a person who was in 'middle age' with all of their faculties. A person who had suffered under the blitz of the Second World War. A person who believed everything that they read in the newspapers, because it was there, in black and white, for everyone to see. A person who declared they were open-minded but had great difficulty in talking to catholics. A peron who was selfish and demanding and at times down right devious. A person who couldn't accept that someone in their own family was in a far worse state of health than they thought they were. A person who thought that a bruise on their knee was far worse than chronic ulcerative colitis in a family member. Telling the sufferer that they didn't know what real pain was.
I have a lot of anger still within me, because I found that the nastiness of middle age turned into the selfish emotional blackmail of old age. My doctor said that most bad tempered people do not mellow with old age. They just got nastier.
Family and friends bent over backwards to help and received cold disdain for their efforts. No-one was acting out of ulterior motives because we all wanted to keep everyone happy. One person poisoned the hard work, efforts, sacrifices, and good will of their closest family. Had it been Alzhiemers we could have negotiated our way through the turmoil. It wasn't that though. It was old fashioned bloody mindedness. I've told my lot, if I start to get like that, then hand me the bottle of Pernod and the lemonade, and the small bottle of pills in the top cupboard. I will refuse to stay where I'm not wanted, for whatever reason. I am serious here and not being flippant. I have read Leonards words and I too face each morning the best way I can. I will not be a burden and I will go in peace.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
Dear Byron ~
You sound very hurt. Your and your family's attempts and goodwill have obviously been spurned. I know you're not being flippant, Byron. I can see your anger. I can feel your pain in your words. You're very right that there are many who follow the course that you have described. The reason that I posted as I did [and presumably that Makera posted as she did] was the "absoluteness" of the statement, regarding people's patterns as they grow old. Amongst many other things you've cited here, two that really stand out are: "A person who thought that a bruise on their knee was far worse than chronic ulcerative colitis in a family member. Telling the sufferer that they didn't know what real pain was." and "A person who declared they were open-minded but had great difficulty in talking to catholics." I guess they stand out because of my own frustration with people like that, whom I've known.
These are not the only examples that you've cited, however, that I can relate to on that basis! It sounds like your best efforts have failed. You sound deeply disappointed by that. Please know [as I'm sure you do] that the efforts you and other family members have made were good ones and right ones. It would be awful to see bitterness creep in because they've failed. Hopefully, somewhere along the line of life that's still left with this person, they will come to see things in a different perspective. I hope so, for all of you.
Love,
Elizabeth
You sound very hurt. Your and your family's attempts and goodwill have obviously been spurned. I know you're not being flippant, Byron. I can see your anger. I can feel your pain in your words. You're very right that there are many who follow the course that you have described. The reason that I posted as I did [and presumably that Makera posted as she did] was the "absoluteness" of the statement, regarding people's patterns as they grow old. Amongst many other things you've cited here, two that really stand out are: "A person who thought that a bruise on their knee was far worse than chronic ulcerative colitis in a family member. Telling the sufferer that they didn't know what real pain was." and "A person who declared they were open-minded but had great difficulty in talking to catholics." I guess they stand out because of my own frustration with people like that, whom I've known.
These are not the only examples that you've cited, however, that I can relate to on that basis! It sounds like your best efforts have failed. You sound deeply disappointed by that. Please know [as I'm sure you do] that the efforts you and other family members have made were good ones and right ones. It would be awful to see bitterness creep in because they've failed. Hopefully, somewhere along the line of life that's still left with this person, they will come to see things in a different perspective. I hope so, for all of you.
Love,
Elizabeth
Lizzy - yeah it is mainly a great job but it is also difficult, sad, harrowing and lots more besides, however if you manage to retain a sense of humour (what some might deem as a warped one at that!) and can share that with your colleagues it also has its rewarding moments . 
Paula and Margaret - I picked Rock Rose as my pen name cos it sounds nice. It is also the Bach Flower Remedy against terror that provides calm and courage and I liked the sound of that! Don't get me wrong I am not making a statement about my own personal ability to do that
Makera - yep - I agree absolutely 'truth will out' eventually.
Byron - I read your personal account and can sense your hurt and anger with your experience. I don't feel that I can comment any further about that specifically probably because I don't know you. However, I feel that your GP was perhaps making quite a simplistic generalisation in his observations about people growing older. In my experience of family members growing old two in particular who took on the role of matriarch throughout their lives, were strong, domineering and manipulative definitely 'mellowed' with age although that 'spark' they had occasionally resurfaced in their later years. Conversely there were the ones who had a lovely disposition and became decidedly more cantankerous with advancing years. I take on board all the points you mentioned Lizzy.
I firmly believe that we come into this world a 'blank slate' which life's pen etches and marks and it is these experiences that will determine how we approach the third and fourth stages of life. In retrospect I can see how the events of my relative's lives and their relationships with their parents, partners, siblings and peers had a direct bearing on how their personalities changed and how they then perceived the world and how they then reacted to it. Goethe said that 'we are shaped and fashioned by what we love' and I think that it is true but only partly I think we are also shaped and fashioned by what we perceive.
Rock Rose
Paula and Margaret - I picked Rock Rose as my pen name cos it sounds nice. It is also the Bach Flower Remedy against terror that provides calm and courage and I liked the sound of that! Don't get me wrong I am not making a statement about my own personal ability to do that
Makera - yep - I agree absolutely 'truth will out' eventually.
Byron - I read your personal account and can sense your hurt and anger with your experience. I don't feel that I can comment any further about that specifically probably because I don't know you. However, I feel that your GP was perhaps making quite a simplistic generalisation in his observations about people growing older. In my experience of family members growing old two in particular who took on the role of matriarch throughout their lives, were strong, domineering and manipulative definitely 'mellowed' with age although that 'spark' they had occasionally resurfaced in their later years. Conversely there were the ones who had a lovely disposition and became decidedly more cantankerous with advancing years. I take on board all the points you mentioned Lizzy.
I firmly believe that we come into this world a 'blank slate' which life's pen etches and marks and it is these experiences that will determine how we approach the third and fourth stages of life. In retrospect I can see how the events of my relative's lives and their relationships with their parents, partners, siblings and peers had a direct bearing on how their personalities changed and how they then perceived the world and how they then reacted to it. Goethe said that 'we are shaped and fashioned by what we love' and I think that it is true but only partly I think we are also shaped and fashioned by what we perceive.
Rock Rose
Lead Thou me to the land of the angels, be to me as a star, be to me as a helm.
Byron~
Your experience sounds very familiar.
Doesn't every family have 'one of those' in some fashion, or degree? That's where the perspective, and 'choice' of attitude, I was describing can prove invaluable. When we have done all possible, with positive intent, to help another to accept and respect those around them, we have to realize when to stop...re-adjust our own perspective...and allow them their own choice of attitude. When we discover we cannot control the perceptions of another, (no matter how beneficial we believe it would be, for all concerned), we can then change our own attitude to the situation. It can be very liberating.
I developed this philosophy for myself some years ago:
'If you don't like something in, about, or influencing your life, change it; if you cannot change it, change your attitude towards it.'
I found this has helped in many circumstances that are beyond my personal control. It does not mean you 'give up' on anything, or anyone. Simply makes you more patient and open to inspiration from Powers beyond yourself, to provide the clues & cues you need.
Just in case some may think I'm pontificating on 'nice' theories, without real experience or understanding: Imagine the inner conflicts, imposed guilt, emotional blackmail and turmoil generated when the type of person Byron described.... is one's own mother!!
So, that's why I love "Desiderata" and "The Theme from TIME" so much.
Look for all the inspiration you can find, it does help.
Love & Light,
Gennelle
Your experience sounds very familiar.
Doesn't every family have 'one of those' in some fashion, or degree? That's where the perspective, and 'choice' of attitude, I was describing can prove invaluable. When we have done all possible, with positive intent, to help another to accept and respect those around them, we have to realize when to stop...re-adjust our own perspective...and allow them their own choice of attitude. When we discover we cannot control the perceptions of another, (no matter how beneficial we believe it would be, for all concerned), we can then change our own attitude to the situation. It can be very liberating. I developed this philosophy for myself some years ago:
'If you don't like something in, about, or influencing your life, change it; if you cannot change it, change your attitude towards it.'
I found this has helped in many circumstances that are beyond my personal control. It does not mean you 'give up' on anything, or anyone. Simply makes you more patient and open to inspiration from Powers beyond yourself, to provide the clues & cues you need.
Just in case some may think I'm pontificating on 'nice' theories, without real experience or understanding: Imagine the inner conflicts, imposed guilt, emotional blackmail and turmoil generated when the type of person Byron described.... is one's own mother!!
So, that's why I love "Desiderata" and "The Theme from TIME" so much.
Look for all the inspiration you can find, it does help.
Love & Light,
Gennelle
I really sympathise Byron, and thanks for venting a bit of spleen! Sometimes I feel like I am the only one in my family not allowed to be miserable. In fact, for a long time I wasn't, because everyone else has some kind of clinical problem.
Did you ever read Andrew Miller's 'Ingenious Pain'? In that (fantastic) novel, the protagonist feels no pain for most of his life, and thus cannot empathise with, or relate to, others' pain. It made me wonder whether it is suffering which allows us to empathise.
Makera, I think that is a very wise and unselfish philosophy to have, although a little idealistic as some things you cannot change (like war, environmental pollution, natural catastrophes). Sometimes I wish I could make myself change my attitude towards such things and just not care!
Did you ever read Andrew Miller's 'Ingenious Pain'? In that (fantastic) novel, the protagonist feels no pain for most of his life, and thus cannot empathise with, or relate to, others' pain. It made me wonder whether it is suffering which allows us to empathise.
Makera, I think that is a very wise and unselfish philosophy to have, although a little idealistic as some things you cannot change (like war, environmental pollution, natural catastrophes). Sometimes I wish I could make myself change my attitude towards such things and just not care!
rachel,
good point about possibly not being really able to empathise unless the peson has suffered physical or mental pain themselves. I have found from experience that many of those who have got through life with hardly a days illness have little understanding or empathy with those who are less fortunate. They are usually the most vociferous and bitter when something hits them in their old age. (I also spend most of my work time with elderly people)
Getting back to earlier posts about personality traits being changed or more pronounced as we get older, I think some basic ones remain in some degree regardless of environment or experience. Some examples would be that some individuals may be inherently caring or selfish, serious or frivolous, mean or generous, tolerant or bigotted. These are unlikely to change with age in the average person.
good point about possibly not being really able to empathise unless the peson has suffered physical or mental pain themselves. I have found from experience that many of those who have got through life with hardly a days illness have little understanding or empathy with those who are less fortunate. They are usually the most vociferous and bitter when something hits them in their old age. (I also spend most of my work time with elderly people)
Getting back to earlier posts about personality traits being changed or more pronounced as we get older, I think some basic ones remain in some degree regardless of environment or experience. Some examples would be that some individuals may be inherently caring or selfish, serious or frivolous, mean or generous, tolerant or bigotted. These are unlikely to change with age in the average person.
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Rachel, who I shall call Nigella , you have touched on a description, which I can bring up to date.
"Been there, done that, got the T-shirt"
We all know the shared experiences we are talking about when those words are spoken between friends, family and colleagues.
My point is that by using your contribution, which alludes to this is to say,
"Had the disease, had the operation, got the scars."
I belong to a group of people who have to undergo regular sessions in a particular field of medicine. The members of the group are far and away better informed and cognizant of each others' struggles than all of the medical staff with their expertise and text book learning.
You rightly used the word 'empathise.' It is a word I have used with special care in some of my postings.
Imagine you are at the bottom of a deep well. A face appears over the lip of the well and a voice shouts down to you saying, "I know how you must be feeling and I do sympathise with you."
You and I know that it is just words.
However, while you sit at the bottom of the deep well, a voice beside you says,
"I know exactly how you are feeling. I'm stuck down here as well, .......in this well."
That is the voice of empathy and I will listen to it.
There is no desire to inflict a similar condition on another, in order for that person to at last, understand exactly what you are saying.
It is simply that they have no idea and will never know.
I posted a poem on the board ages ago. I think it is called "To my prison psychiatrists." I wanted to expose the yawning gap between those who are trained and paid to be experts, and those who are experts through a real world experience. I haven't looked at the 'poem' to support this particular thread and I won't look at it now. It is one of my written 'children' and it has been sent out into the world to make its own way through the ether.
Byron 'sends Nigella his regards.'
, you have touched on a description, which I can bring up to date."Been there, done that, got the T-shirt"
We all know the shared experiences we are talking about when those words are spoken between friends, family and colleagues.
My point is that by using your contribution, which alludes to this is to say,
"Had the disease, had the operation, got the scars."
I belong to a group of people who have to undergo regular sessions in a particular field of medicine. The members of the group are far and away better informed and cognizant of each others' struggles than all of the medical staff with their expertise and text book learning.
You rightly used the word 'empathise.' It is a word I have used with special care in some of my postings.
Imagine you are at the bottom of a deep well. A face appears over the lip of the well and a voice shouts down to you saying, "I know how you must be feeling and I do sympathise with you."
You and I know that it is just words.
However, while you sit at the bottom of the deep well, a voice beside you says,
"I know exactly how you are feeling. I'm stuck down here as well, .......in this well."
That is the voice of empathy and I will listen to it.
There is no desire to inflict a similar condition on another, in order for that person to at last, understand exactly what you are saying.
It is simply that they have no idea and will never know.
I posted a poem on the board ages ago. I think it is called "To my prison psychiatrists." I wanted to expose the yawning gap between those who are trained and paid to be experts, and those who are experts through a real world experience. I haven't looked at the 'poem' to support this particular thread and I won't look at it now. It is one of my written 'children' and it has been sent out into the world to make its own way through the ether.
Byron 'sends Nigella his regards.'