this piece i just found reckons leonard cohen for obvious reasons:
http://www.thequietus.com/articles/dylan-vs-cohen
what does everyone think then?
leave a comment at that website and let em know what you think ;o)
bobbyp x
cohen vs. dylan
cohen vs. dylan
who's the best lyricist then?
this piece i just found reckons leonard cohen for obvious reasons:
http://www.thequietus.com/articles/dylan-vs-cohen
what does everyone think then?
leave a comment at that website and let em know what you think ;o)
bobbyp x
this piece i just found reckons leonard cohen for obvious reasons:
http://www.thequietus.com/articles/dylan-vs-cohen
what does everyone think then?
leave a comment at that website and let em know what you think ;o)
bobbyp x
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Great article. Thanks for posting it bobbyp.
It is a bit too one-sided in places: Dylan has been covered, and generally covered well, by as wide ranging (or possibly more wide ranging) a list of highly regarded artists. I can think immediately of great cover versions by the likes of Scott Walker, Nick Cave, Bryan Ferry, and David McComb (I know, I know, I'll keep making my point).
Generally, I would say that Cohen's lyrics speak more to (and of) my inner feelings.....and if you compared the recent lyric books for each of them in the Great Lyricists series produced by The Guardian it seems fairly self evident which has the better mastery of words and forming them into a rhymically coherent form which is also meaningful.
Dylan was the originator (in terms of being the vanguard to mass popularity) of a form (white man combines folky pop with intelligent quasi-poetic lyrics) which Cohen followed as much as many of that era. So as the initiator of a style, Dylan is likely to remain the more culturally dominant. His greater mass popularity (having already established a critical mass) is also likely to remain.
I don't particularly "get off" on much by Dylan and never have done. I consider him way overrated.
To me, what he does bring to the party is what I would describe as the "onomatopoeic poetry" in his vocal delivery of tumbling words which makes his stuff worthwhile even though I largely remain unaffected and uninterested in what lies beyond the verbiage and whether it actually means anything important. It is that which made the "Dylan Hears A Who?" send up involving a Dylan impressionist doing Dr Seuss verse over Dylan's music so brilliant and insightful.
It is a bit too one-sided in places: Dylan has been covered, and generally covered well, by as wide ranging (or possibly more wide ranging) a list of highly regarded artists. I can think immediately of great cover versions by the likes of Scott Walker, Nick Cave, Bryan Ferry, and David McComb (I know, I know, I'll keep making my point).
Generally, I would say that Cohen's lyrics speak more to (and of) my inner feelings.....and if you compared the recent lyric books for each of them in the Great Lyricists series produced by The Guardian it seems fairly self evident which has the better mastery of words and forming them into a rhymically coherent form which is also meaningful.
Dylan was the originator (in terms of being the vanguard to mass popularity) of a form (white man combines folky pop with intelligent quasi-poetic lyrics) which Cohen followed as much as many of that era. So as the initiator of a style, Dylan is likely to remain the more culturally dominant. His greater mass popularity (having already established a critical mass) is also likely to remain.
I don't particularly "get off" on much by Dylan and never have done. I consider him way overrated.
To me, what he does bring to the party is what I would describe as the "onomatopoeic poetry" in his vocal delivery of tumbling words which makes his stuff worthwhile even though I largely remain unaffected and uninterested in what lies beyond the verbiage and whether it actually means anything important. It is that which made the "Dylan Hears A Who?" send up involving a Dylan impressionist doing Dr Seuss verse over Dylan's music so brilliant and insightful.
Re: cohen vs. dylan
What a question on a fan forum for LC...bobbyp wrote: who's the best lyricist then?
....
what does everyone think then?
Re: cohen vs. dylan
I have met many people who are surprised to learn that Cohen is not a 'new' or recent artist; and that he has been writing and singing for decades; and is not "their" age. They say he is talks directly to them; or about them; or about something they find very new and important. They seldom make this mistake about Dylan.
Dylan is a prolific genius; but LC touches the heart and soul.
Dylan is a prolific genius; but LC touches the heart and soul.
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Dylan is.
Poetry is just the evidence of life. If your life is burning well, poetry is just the ash.
Leonard Cohen
Leonard Cohen
Re: cohen vs. dylan
I think Dylan is the better songwriter, and Cohen is the better poet. Due mostly to the breadth of Dylan's ouevre. If that makes any sense.
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Never mind the quality, feel the width? 
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Leonard Cohen is a Legend.
Dylan ,it has been said has bought his music for like $5 for those that would live for a week on $5 and he has not denied or confirmed this accusation
I am only saying as I heard .
One does not even have to go there when the question is posed re D or Cohen
The answer lies with the Legend himself
Gregor!
Dylan ,it has been said has bought his music for like $5 for those that would live for a week on $5 and he has not denied or confirmed this accusation
I am only saying as I heard .
One does not even have to go there when the question is posed re D or Cohen
The answer lies with the Legend himself
Gregor!
There is a crack in every thing thats how the light gets in
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Bob seems to have become a grumpy old man whereas Leonard has become a genial gentleman.
To compare them is like comparing The Rolling Stones and The Beatles, both fantastic at what they did, neither better than the other, just different.
I feel we are very fortunate to live in the times of many great poets, let us just appreciate them all while we are still lucky enough to have them.
To compare them is like comparing The Rolling Stones and The Beatles, both fantastic at what they did, neither better than the other, just different.
I feel we are very fortunate to live in the times of many great poets, let us just appreciate them all while we are still lucky enough to have them.
"I needed so much, to have nothing to touch - I've always been greedy that way"
Re: cohen vs. dylan
There is no war between Cohen and Dylan.
Both are good writers, but different in many ways.
It is easier to collect records by Cohen than by Dylan though.
Both are good writers, but different in many ways.
It is easier to collect records by Cohen than by Dylan though.
You know who I am...
Re: cohen vs. dylan
they are both great man, each in their own right.
I prefer Leonard for his poems/songs and for the man he is. (he is an older gentleman but he still looks fabulous)
In short he and his music make happy. specially tonight in Amsterdam!
I prefer Leonard for his poems/songs and for the man he is. (he is an older gentleman but he still looks fabulous)
In short he and his music make happy. specially tonight in Amsterdam!
Re: cohen vs. dylan
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what the whole fasination with Bob Dylan is all about. His lyrics are too plain and simple. I never understood what was so special about his songs. I can't stand his voice, his music or his looks. He annoys me.
Why is this in the NEWS section?
Why is this in the NEWS section?
They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
Re: cohen vs. dylan
size: A | A | A
For decades, music fans and critics have pondered over the inspiration behind Bob Dylan's free-rolling words and music. Was it the dope, was it the dreaming or was it simply the result of living in the Sixties? But now a much more unlikely muse has been revealed behind the 65-year-old musician's latest collection of songs: a long dead, little-known poet from the American Civil War.
While experts have not directly accused Dylan of plagiarism over the songs on his latest album, Modern Times, which is number one in the US charts, they say there appears to be little doubt that he has liberally "borrowed" from the works of the Confederate poet Henry Timrod.
For instance, the lines in his song "When the Deal Goes Down", in which Dylan sings: "More frailer than the flowers, these precious hours", bear a striking resemblance to lines contained in Timrod's "A Rhapsody of a Southern Winter Night", which reads: "A round of precious hours, Oh! Here where in that summer noon I basked, And strove, with logic frailer than the flowers." Elsewhere in the same song, Dylan sings "Where wisdom grows up in strife" - very similar to a line in Timrod's poem "Retirement", which reads: "There is a wisdom that grows up in strife."
Walter Cisco, author of a biography of the poet, entitled Henry Timrod, said he was certain that Dylan had borrowed from the writer. Speaking from his home in Orangeburg, South Carolina, he said: "It's amazing. There is no question that is where it came from. It's too much to be a coincidence. I'm just delighted that Timrod is getting some recognition."
Born in 1828, Timrod worked as a private tutor on a plantation before the Civil War. Many of his earlier poems were about nature, but with the outbreak of war he started to write about the hardships caused by the conflict and its impact on people's lives.
Though he is today considered a minor poet, the Victorian poet Alfred Lord Tennyson described him as the Poet Laureate of the Confederacy. Timrod died of tuberculosis in 1867.
Dylan's apparent borrowing of Timrod's work was first uncovered by Scott Warmuth, a radio disc jockey based in New Mexico, who used the internet to try to discover the source of Dylan's lyrics. He said he found 10 instances on the album where Dylan's lyrics are similar to Timrod's poetry.
Mr Warmuth told the New York Times: "I think that's the way Bob Dylan has always written songs. It's part of the folk process, if you look from his first album to now." But he said he still considered Dylan's work to be original. "You could give the collected works of Henry Timrod to a bunch of people but none of them are going to come up with Bob Dylan songs," he said.
Mr Warmuth originally posted his findings on the internet forum Dylan Pool. There, not everyone agreed with his assessment that Dylan's borrowing was acceptable. One displeased poster, Harvey, wrote: "Bob really is a thieving little swine - the melodies, the riffs, the solos, hell entire songs even.
"And now the lyrics. If it was anyone else we'd be stringing them up by their neck, but no, it's Bobby Dee and it's 'the folk process'." He added: "I wonder can I get my PhD via 'the folk process'? I hear that's what Vladimir Putin did."
This is not the first time that Dylan has been accused of borrowing from other sources. When his previous album, Love and Theft, was released in 2001, a fan discovered around a dozen instances where the lyrics were similar to lines contained within Confessions of a Yakuzsa, an obscure Japanese gangster novel by Junichi Saga. It was revealed, for instance, that a line on the song "Floater", where Dylan sang: "I'm not quite as cool or forgiving as I sound" echoed a line in the book which said: "I'm not as cool or forgiving as I might have sounded."
Neither Dylan nor his record company, Columbia Records, has commented on the allegations.
However, internet chatrooms dedicated to Dylan and his music are busy with speculation and comment.
Some fans have also pointed out that Dylan may have left a deliberate clue in the title of his album, Modern Times, which contains the letters used to spell Timrod.
Dylan's debt
Henry Timrod
"A round of precious hours
Oh! here, where in that summer noon I basked
And strove, with logic frailer than the flowers..."
("A Rhapsody of a Southern Winter Night")
Bob Dylan
"More frailer than the flowers, these precious hours."
("When the Deal Goes Down")
Henry Timrod
"There is a wisdom that grows up in strife"
("Retirement")
Bob Dylan
"Where wisdom grows up in strife"
("When the Deal Goes Down")
Henry Timrod
"Which, ere they feel a lover's breath,
Lie in a temporary death"
("Two Portraits")
Bob Dylan
"In the dark I hear the night birds call
I can hear a lover's breath
I sleep in the kitchen with my feet in the hall
Sleep is like a temporary death"
("Workingman's Blues number 2")
Henry Timrod
"How then, O weary one! Explain
The sources of that hidden pain?"
("Two Portraits")
Bob Dylan
"Can't explain the sources of this hidden pain"
("Spirit on the Water")
Interesting?
For decades, music fans and critics have pondered over the inspiration behind Bob Dylan's free-rolling words and music. Was it the dope, was it the dreaming or was it simply the result of living in the Sixties? But now a much more unlikely muse has been revealed behind the 65-year-old musician's latest collection of songs: a long dead, little-known poet from the American Civil War.
While experts have not directly accused Dylan of plagiarism over the songs on his latest album, Modern Times, which is number one in the US charts, they say there appears to be little doubt that he has liberally "borrowed" from the works of the Confederate poet Henry Timrod.
For instance, the lines in his song "When the Deal Goes Down", in which Dylan sings: "More frailer than the flowers, these precious hours", bear a striking resemblance to lines contained in Timrod's "A Rhapsody of a Southern Winter Night", which reads: "A round of precious hours, Oh! Here where in that summer noon I basked, And strove, with logic frailer than the flowers." Elsewhere in the same song, Dylan sings "Where wisdom grows up in strife" - very similar to a line in Timrod's poem "Retirement", which reads: "There is a wisdom that grows up in strife."
Walter Cisco, author of a biography of the poet, entitled Henry Timrod, said he was certain that Dylan had borrowed from the writer. Speaking from his home in Orangeburg, South Carolina, he said: "It's amazing. There is no question that is where it came from. It's too much to be a coincidence. I'm just delighted that Timrod is getting some recognition."
Born in 1828, Timrod worked as a private tutor on a plantation before the Civil War. Many of his earlier poems were about nature, but with the outbreak of war he started to write about the hardships caused by the conflict and its impact on people's lives.
Though he is today considered a minor poet, the Victorian poet Alfred Lord Tennyson described him as the Poet Laureate of the Confederacy. Timrod died of tuberculosis in 1867.
Dylan's apparent borrowing of Timrod's work was first uncovered by Scott Warmuth, a radio disc jockey based in New Mexico, who used the internet to try to discover the source of Dylan's lyrics. He said he found 10 instances on the album where Dylan's lyrics are similar to Timrod's poetry.
Mr Warmuth told the New York Times: "I think that's the way Bob Dylan has always written songs. It's part of the folk process, if you look from his first album to now." But he said he still considered Dylan's work to be original. "You could give the collected works of Henry Timrod to a bunch of people but none of them are going to come up with Bob Dylan songs," he said.
Mr Warmuth originally posted his findings on the internet forum Dylan Pool. There, not everyone agreed with his assessment that Dylan's borrowing was acceptable. One displeased poster, Harvey, wrote: "Bob really is a thieving little swine - the melodies, the riffs, the solos, hell entire songs even.
"And now the lyrics. If it was anyone else we'd be stringing them up by their neck, but no, it's Bobby Dee and it's 'the folk process'." He added: "I wonder can I get my PhD via 'the folk process'? I hear that's what Vladimir Putin did."
This is not the first time that Dylan has been accused of borrowing from other sources. When his previous album, Love and Theft, was released in 2001, a fan discovered around a dozen instances where the lyrics were similar to lines contained within Confessions of a Yakuzsa, an obscure Japanese gangster novel by Junichi Saga. It was revealed, for instance, that a line on the song "Floater", where Dylan sang: "I'm not quite as cool or forgiving as I sound" echoed a line in the book which said: "I'm not as cool or forgiving as I might have sounded."
Neither Dylan nor his record company, Columbia Records, has commented on the allegations.
However, internet chatrooms dedicated to Dylan and his music are busy with speculation and comment.
Some fans have also pointed out that Dylan may have left a deliberate clue in the title of his album, Modern Times, which contains the letters used to spell Timrod.
Dylan's debt
Henry Timrod
"A round of precious hours
Oh! here, where in that summer noon I basked
And strove, with logic frailer than the flowers..."
("A Rhapsody of a Southern Winter Night")
Bob Dylan
"More frailer than the flowers, these precious hours."
("When the Deal Goes Down")
Henry Timrod
"There is a wisdom that grows up in strife"
("Retirement")
Bob Dylan
"Where wisdom grows up in strife"
("When the Deal Goes Down")
Henry Timrod
"Which, ere they feel a lover's breath,
Lie in a temporary death"
("Two Portraits")
Bob Dylan
"In the dark I hear the night birds call
I can hear a lover's breath
I sleep in the kitchen with my feet in the hall
Sleep is like a temporary death"
("Workingman's Blues number 2")
Henry Timrod
"How then, O weary one! Explain
The sources of that hidden pain?"
("Two Portraits")
Bob Dylan
"Can't explain the sources of this hidden pain"
("Spirit on the Water")
Interesting?
There is a crack in every thing thats how the light gets in
Re: cohen vs. dylan
I once sat next to Meat Loaf's wife (Mrs Loaf??) on a transatlantic flight and when we got talking, it came out that she lived in Woodstock, NY during the 60's when Bob Dylan was recording The Basement Tapes with The Band, and at the time of his infamous motorcycle accident. While chatting she told me that there was only one songwriter that Bob felt was 'better' than him - you can guess who, Lenny of course.
As I got off the airplane, I phoned two of my closest fans, both Dylan obsessives rivalling my obsession with LC. Their response?
"You're making that up"
"You would say that, wouldn't you"
They're still friends and I still dine on the story!
As I got off the airplane, I phoned two of my closest fans, both Dylan obsessives rivalling my obsession with LC. Their response?
"You're making that up"
"You would say that, wouldn't you"
They're still friends and I still dine on the story!
1974 London RAH|1976 London RAH, London New Vic x 3|1979 Manchester|1985 London Hamm x 2|1988 London RAH x 3|1993 London RAH x 2|2008 Manchester x 2, Glastonbury, London O2 x 2, Big Chill, London RAH, Brighton|2009 Weybridge|2012 London Wembley|2013 London O2 x 2
"thanks for the trouble you took from her eyes, i thought it was there for good so i never tried"
"thanks for the trouble you took from her eyes, i thought it was there for good so i never tried"
-
John Etherington
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:17 pm
Re: cohen vs. dylan
Hi Ziyad,
If Dylan said that, it would have been before Leonard had released his first album. Presumably the only songs Dylan would have heard then, would have been the songs recorded by Judy Collins - "Suzanne", "Dress Rehearsal Rag", Sisters of Mercy", "Priests" and "Hey That's No Way To Say Goodbye". Dylan's statement could be considered as very generous, since he had already recorded seven albums.
All good things, John E
If Dylan said that, it would have been before Leonard had released his first album. Presumably the only songs Dylan would have heard then, would have been the songs recorded by Judy Collins - "Suzanne", "Dress Rehearsal Rag", Sisters of Mercy", "Priests" and "Hey That's No Way To Say Goodbye". Dylan's statement could be considered as very generous, since he had already recorded seven albums.
All good things, John E