i'm almost sure leonard used original poem (or for example french translation), because i've read it before in croatian, and when i heard take this waltz i thought it was simply english translation. then i took a book and read poem whilst listening to a song, and obviously saw all the difference, but still... croatian translation appears more similar to leonard's song than this english translation.
JURICA
Take this Waltz
Just for the record, the poem i typed up is from the "Collected Poems, bilingual edition" (farrar, straus, giroux). This particular poem is found in the New York section of the book 1929-30 when Lorca was attending Columbia. The translators are Greg Simon and Steven F. White. The original Spanish is shown alongside the English version. Although i do not speak Spanish i know a few words in Italian and see some similarities. I cannot find any deviance from the Spanish to the English in content, but of course there is no "perfect" when it comes from going btwn 2 languages. I would be interested if someone has a Different english translation from what i shared.
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TheStranger
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The following was lifted from the 'Diamonds in the Lines' site at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pilgraeme/ where there is also a copy of the Lorca's Spanish original.
"With the Lorca poem, the translation took 150 hours, just to get it into English that resembled - I would never presume to say duplicated - the greatness of Lorca's poem. It was a long, drawn-out affair, and the only reason I would even attempt it is my love for Lorca. I loved him as a kid; I named my daughter Lorca, so you can see this is not a casual figure in my life."
L. Cohen, Interview "Your Flesh" Magazine, 1992
"With the Lorca poem, the translation took 150 hours, just to get it into English that resembled - I would never presume to say duplicated - the greatness of Lorca's poem. It was a long, drawn-out affair, and the only reason I would even attempt it is my love for Lorca. I loved him as a kid; I named my daughter Lorca, so you can see this is not a casual figure in my life."
L. Cohen, Interview "Your Flesh" Magazine, 1992
Jurica, I have Croatian translation by Zvonimir Golob ("Pjesnik u New Yorku", Zagreb 1954, = Poets in NY), and it seems actually the same as this English translation.
As I know, there was some talks about metre (?) of poem - as you can see, Lorca's original has shorter lines than Leonard's translation, I'm not sure can you actually sing Lorca's original. Leonard did that to set song to waltz, as for I know.
As for waltz, where is it suppose to taken us to, you must know theme of the whole book, Poets In New York, its structure and development of motifs and themes, and then see that at the end of the book, before the closing poems ("Poet comes back to Cuba"), there is a part called "Runnaway from civilization/Two waltzs". Firts is "Little Viennese Waltz", the second is "Waltz in leafs".
At the beginning of the book, there are songs about leaving Cuba, coming to NY, and then "Poem for Walt Whitman", poems about Harlem's black people, poors, beggars, etc.
T.
As I know, there was some talks about metre (?) of poem - as you can see, Lorca's original has shorter lines than Leonard's translation, I'm not sure can you actually sing Lorca's original. Leonard did that to set song to waltz, as for I know.
As for waltz, where is it suppose to taken us to, you must know theme of the whole book, Poets In New York, its structure and development of motifs and themes, and then see that at the end of the book, before the closing poems ("Poet comes back to Cuba"), there is a part called "Runnaway from civilization/Two waltzs". Firts is "Little Viennese Waltz", the second is "Waltz in leafs".
At the beginning of the book, there are songs about leaving Cuba, coming to NY, and then "Poem for Walt Whitman", poems about Harlem's black people, poors, beggars, etc.
T.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
i'm not sure who translated the poem for collection where i've read it from, and i'll first have to go to library to look it after (since i borrowed that book), but i'll let you know.
i didn't suggest ANY differences in content; the difference i noted was in different choice of words (some croatian words could have been translated using different english words - words mr. cohen used rather than those used in above translation)... but it could have been due to change in rythm, as you noticed.
JURICA
i didn't suggest ANY differences in content; the difference i noted was in different choice of words (some croatian words could have been translated using different english words - words mr. cohen used rather than those used in above translation)... but it could have been due to change in rythm, as you noticed.
JURICA
Thanks, Jarkko, I know that, but I still don't have that album. I heard Morente's 2 covers on KCRW 1997 Interview (CD). few days ago I just wondered about that: how he sings the original poem is its lines are shorter.
I have first to see where I read or heard Leonard saying that about chaniging rhytme, I don't remember...
(Jurica, the second Croatian translation (in that hard cover book of selected poems and prose, with added LP with recitations) is much much better, this one from the integral translation of the book is strange at the moments (it keeps to close to the original, so it sounds little weird in Croatian syntax).
Still, there's 1 question - why they made that peculiar translation of Cohen's song on Ibrica's Hazarder, without looking in Lorca's translation. And they knew it, because Take This Waltz is covered in Croatian like "Little Viennese Waltz".)
I have first to see where I read or heard Leonard saying that about chaniging rhytme, I don't remember...
(Jurica, the second Croatian translation (in that hard cover book of selected poems and prose, with added LP with recitations) is much much better, this one from the integral translation of the book is strange at the moments (it keeps to close to the original, so it sounds little weird in Croatian syntax).
Still, there's 1 question - why they made that peculiar translation of Cohen's song on Ibrica's Hazarder, without looking in Lorca's translation. And they knew it, because Take This Waltz is covered in Croatian like "Little Viennese Waltz".)
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
Jarkko,
may I ask for a recommendation of a cover album of LC that is very very different from the original (i.e., from LCs style), both in vocal style and arrangements ? Other than Jennifer Warnes album and the language doesnt matter but of course it should be something that I can get hold of easily enough and is also what you may consider a well done tribute. Thanks in advance...
may I ask for a recommendation of a cover album of LC that is very very different from the original (i.e., from LCs style), both in vocal style and arrangements ? Other than Jennifer Warnes album and the language doesnt matter but of course it should be something that I can get hold of easily enough and is also what you may consider a well done tribute. Thanks in advance...
Kush: a difficult choice to make! You wanted to have
something very different, so I'd buy Enrique Morente's Omega (tribute
to Lorca and Cohen in flamenco style). However note that it has
only four Cohen songs. The album is available on-line at
http://www.fnac.es. Quite frequently I return to this album and love
to play it with high volume!
Another equally excellent choice would be the Norwegian
tribute by the leading female vocalists of the country "Cohen
på norsk. Om månnen hadde en söster" but it's very difficult
to find. Who could resist Kari Bremnes's renditions????
Jan Erik Lundqvist's Swedish tribute and John Bergeron's recent
"House of Mystery" should also be mentioned, and you can
order them easily from the artists.
Maciej Zembaty's recent albums can be found at
http://www.stereo.pl
These and many other splendid tributes are featured on this site at
http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/covers.html
Jarkko
something very different, so I'd buy Enrique Morente's Omega (tribute
to Lorca and Cohen in flamenco style). However note that it has
only four Cohen songs. The album is available on-line at
http://www.fnac.es. Quite frequently I return to this album and love
to play it with high volume!
Another equally excellent choice would be the Norwegian
tribute by the leading female vocalists of the country "Cohen
på norsk. Om månnen hadde en söster" but it's very difficult
to find. Who could resist Kari Bremnes's renditions????
Jan Erik Lundqvist's Swedish tribute and John Bergeron's recent
"House of Mystery" should also be mentioned, and you can
order them easily from the artists.
Maciej Zembaty's recent albums can be found at
http://www.stereo.pl
These and many other splendid tributes are featured on this site at
http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/covers.html
Jarkko
Thanks. Enrique Morente seems really interesting especially after reading the comment (presumably yours) that "even Phil Spector would love this sound wall." I will get hold of that album. I have heard snippets of John Bergeron's tribute and he sings extremely well. But that vocal style is not very new to me personally so I shall pass on it for now. But I do recommend it for others...