Drowning men

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
Fljotsdale
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Post by Fljotsdale » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:12 am

jurica wrote:Fljots,

that's a very interesting book you have there. i should have gotten myself one long ago. it may have speared me a lot of trouble.

don't sweat about forgeting where Shakespeare was quoted. one would need a brain of a computer to remember all the quotes Eliot used, realy.
Yes, it's not a bad reference book. The only problem is, it refers you to SUCH a lot of further reading, LOL!

Yeah - Eliot was a very widely-read chap. And he must have had a darn good memory, too!

I have to get another copy of The Golden Bough. Lent mine out, years ago, and never got it back. It would come in handy with T S Eliot, to say nothing of being fascinating in itself.
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
Fljotsdale
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Post by Fljotsdale » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:21 am

Kush, I like that seaweed picture! Yes, it looks like a 'stick' figure with hands reaching out imploringly, like a child wanting to picked up and cuddled.
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
User avatar
Ali
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:29 am
Location: Bristol UK
Contact:

Post by Ali » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am

I got lucky Flojts, I picked up a copy for £2.00 the other day, I never got my first copy back either :x
ALI
X
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilage it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to live." ....... Marcus Aurelius
Fljotsdale
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Post by Fljotsdale » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:48 am

Two quid?! Wow! Heh, I hope I get so lucky!

Yeah, when people get their grubbly little paws on a book like that, you've seen the last of it. :( Same thing happened with my copy of The Two Babylons, by Hislop. I got another one a few years back (published as printed facsimile pages, rather shrunk and harder to read the footnotes)but it isn't anywhere near as nice as my old, well-thumbed one, on soft, thick paper. :cry:
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
VAN
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:15 pm

Re: Drowning men

Post by VAN » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:15 am

jurica wrote:
In the second verse:

And Jesus was a sailor
when he walked upon the water /walking on water/
and he spent a long time watching
from his lonely wooden tower
and when he knew for certain
only drowning men could see him /drowning men/
he said “All men will be sailors then
until the sea shall free them” /liberating sea/
but he himself was broken
long before the sky would open /opening of the sky/
forsaken, almost human
he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone /sinking beneath the wisdom/

I’ve marked some motives that I think are important for this particular consideration. Apparently Gods can walk on the water, and humans sink. Like Jesus sank when he was forsaken, almost human. Are these images connected to the last verses’:

There are heroes in the seaweed /drowned men?/
there are children in the morning /will they become sailors only to drown?/
they are leaning out for love /are they leaning towards Suzanne or perhaps the sky that should open?/
they will lean that way forever
while Suzanne holds the mirror /mirror/
I've always taken this as Cohen elevating the Suzanne character to the the point of the divine, or in this case above it. He does this a lot. Jesus sinks beneath the waters of her knowledge becuase she is greater than even he is. All men are lonely travelers and that is how they have to be to see what Suzanne has to show them.
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Post by Tchocolatl » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:59 am

Lovely picture of a seeweed. Interesting to read how the different interpretions are... differents. 8)

To a better comprehension of the archetypes, I felt I should bring a complement to what I wrote :

(...) "Jung often seemed to view the archetypes as sort of psychological organs, directly analogous to our physical, bodily organs: both being morphological givens for the species; both arising at least partially through evolutionary processes. There are four famous forms of archetypes numbered by Jung:

* The Self
* The Shadow
* The Anima
* The Animus

The symbols of the unconscious abound in Jungian psychology:

* The Syzygy (Divine Couple, e.g. Aeons)
* The Child (examples: Linus van Pelt)
* The Superman (the Omnipotent)
* The Hero (examples: Siegfried, Beowulf, Doc Savage, Luke Skywalker, Thomas A. Anderson ("Neo"), Harry Potter)
* The Great Mother manifested either as the Good Mother or the Terrible Mother (examples: Glinda, Good Witch of the North)
* The Wise Old Man (examples: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Gandalf, Albus Dumbledore, Mr.Miyagi (karate kid movie))
* The Trickster or Ape (examples: Robin Goodfellow, Brer Rabbit, Bart Simpson, Bugs Bunny, Loki, Eris, Eshu)
* ...etc..."

Source (no intention of a pun, there were no better link, I searched for another, there was none - honest!)
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:25 am

Tchocolatl wrote:The only jugian analysis by a Croatian guy I remimber was not about Suzanne, but about the Captain
true. my bad. obviously you remembered better than me.

regarding jungian readings on VP board and elsewhere, they are not popular only in reading Cohen's work. from what i can tell reading around, Jung is as popular as ever last few years.

being a rationalist and materialist myself, it does come sort of frustrating, i must admit. it is almost as if he opposes my religion or something...

well, having to admit to oneself that he's prejudical is sort of frustrating too.
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:29 am

Fljotsdale wrote:I have to get another copy of The Golden Bough. Lent mine out, years ago, and never got it back.
well, it's free to distribute now. i think i got mine for like 2 bucks or something. very cheap.

i also find (for The Waste Land analyses) it useful to download it from some Guttenberg project site, because you can easily search it...
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Post by Tchocolatl » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:17 pm

I did not know that you have a difficult time with Jung. I did not want to frustrate you.

The "inner territory" is quite a unknown place. We have travelled to the moon and plus, we went down the deep blue sea. Still it seems we don't know our inner world as well as the outer one.

Jung, though, after his master Freud, is a pionner in this field, not the alpha and omega of the thing.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25386
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:14 pm

I'll take that Jung test as soon as I feel like boring my way through a seemingly endless set of rather-similar-at-times questions [that, in itself, no doubt speaks volumes of me :lol: ].

Anyway, the seaweed scene of Suzanne has always affected me in this way. Suzanne seems to be rich in her being, her imagination, her insight and perceptions, and the application of these in her life. For me, when I picture seaweed in my mind, I see it as a rather tangled and dense entity beneath the water. To see heroes in the seaweed takes a level of insight that seems unique-to-Suzanne in Leonard's song. She's a perceptive woman who can find beauty, anywhere. Heroes are everywhere. It only takes a different level of being to recognize them. Suzanne does. They're not only the ones who make it into the news and headlines. The seaweed for me is symbolic of how adept she is at doing so and indicative of her special vision.

Children symbolize the 'morning of our lives' ~ they seem to be precious to her, and she shares their value with all who will come with her. Most children lean out for love, to give or receive it. She 'shows' them to Leonard. They symbolize Love, as do heroes; who valiantly give, or fight, and prevail, in its name, with acts that are love-based. Both will, indeed, lean that way forever. For me, Suzanne is 'all' about Love [amongst other things]. She holds the mirror for Leonard, not to herself, and not to show Leonard herself or himself, but to show him ~ through her and her mirror ~ the beauty and love in the world. She may, incidentally, also show him the beauty and love in himself. The mirror she holds doesn't relate to vanity, but rather as a means of reflection for what is beautiful.

For me, it is Suzanne's special relationship, identification with, and personification of Love that makes her so enchanting. Her level of Love and of Loving doesn't require or depend upon sexual expression. It goes far beyond.

~ Lizzy
Post Reply

Return to “Leonard Cohen's music”