Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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Would you say that Leonard's lyrics are influenced by Buddhist thought?

Yes, throughout his career
26
76%
Yes, since Mount Baldy
5
15%
No, not even after Mount Baldy
1
3%
I have no idea
2
6%
 
Total votes: 34
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remote1
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by remote1 »

TineDoes wrote:Remote1,
Thanks also for your very clear explanations. I may still not understand to the full what you are saying about duality, but that is because I have little framework of reference on Buddism.
Hi again Tine

If you've read a book on Buddhism, albeit in the 70s, you know more about it than me. :D

My ignorance is an abyss. I am merely absorbing like a sponge what other people are saying (mainly Holydove, who has studied Buddhism for eleven years, if I remember correctly), and turning it into something that I can comprehend. I know a little about contemporary philosophy (out of necessity, which is why I am not an expert in that either). So whatever I talk about is more from the standpoint of post-structuralist thought, which is actually helping me here.

Now, I shall try and explain what I understand regarding duality more clearly. I hope it helps but do let me know if it doesn't!

Imagine a situation where you decide to divide the world into categories, such as the living/the dead, the man/the woman, the human/the animal, the civilised/the uncivilised, the weak/the strong, the ill/the well etc. You are using words to create one vision of the world which is ordered in one particular way. This is text, isn’t it? Of course, there are human beings who are biologically distinct, but the rigid categorization into “man” and “woman”, with all the weight of implication that various cultures place upon it, does not have to be regarded as an essential property of being human, does it? But imagine now a situation in which you decide to use words to create a different vision of the world. Then you could, for instance, begin to break the divisions and see death in the living and life in the dead, and man in the woman and woman in the man, and the human in the animal and the animal the human. You would gradually start wondering whether these absolute dual categories, structures, hierarchies, are the most enriching, the most open-hearted/minded ways of considering the world. And with words, like Leonard Cohen does it, you could challenge these absolutes: “The open-hearted many/ The broken-hearted few” become “The broken-hearted many/ The open-hearted few”. What does it mean? It means that the division between the open-hearted and the broken-hearted is a very tentative, conceptual one. There is not, in humanity, an absolute and essential division where you are either open-hearted or broken-hearted. In the same way, if you think that life is about waiting for something good to happen, you are living your life within a position, a feeling, of lack. You are understanding your life as defined by what is missing, as defined by “not having” versus “having”. The other side of “not having” is not “having” (you would still be within the paradigm of binary oppositions). The other side of “not having” is “not not having”. This is where your conceptual (or spiritual) freedom lies. So in the same way, if you step back from the “waiting” and “not waiting” opposition, you are “free from waiting and free from not waiting” as Leonard explains. In other words, you are not waiting and you are not not waiting.

Sorry, this was quite long-winded! As I said, this is my humble interpretation of what has been said before, combined with a bit of post-structuralist stuff. You are all welcome to let me know if I've got anything wrong. I won't take it personally!

Phew! Half past midnight! Good night! ;-)
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by humbled »

Tine:

The idea of dualism comes from the idea that all is illusion. It is a manifestation of that illusion. There are three ways you can go. You can choose one “side” over another: good vs. evil, light vs. dark, live vs. die. In choosing one over another you are living in the illusion. You have chosen the path that is illusionary. If you can see past this illusion you can see that good/evil, light/dark, live/die came only from the posture that YOU took it is NOT reality. However in choosing this path where you see one of the opposites the other WILL always be there. It is a consequence of the choice you make.

Only seeing past the illusion (the third choice) shows you that there is no good there is no evil, there is no light there is no dark, there is no life there is no death. All that really exists is the ineffable. What is the ineffable? By definition it cannot be put into words.

This is most easily demonstrated in eastern religions by the idea of Gods; the God of death is also the god of sex, etc. etc. etc. You can read about Shiva to see this. The god of death (Shiva) is also the God of creation (Shiva Dancing the Dance of Creation).

You can also read about the Buddha when he was Prince Five Weapons. When he defeats a “devil” he does not destroy him. He actually makes him the protector of the place where they did battle. Once a “monster” is recognized its power over you is gone and it can be put into its proper place. Or a better way of saying it: a monster is a God not recognized. Notice the two figures at the gates of “Eastern” temples. One “good” one “evil” only if you are willing to accept both and put them in their proper place can you pass between them to the realization the temple represents: the illusion of duality.

This is NOT what western religions’ message is. In Western religions good and evil are real and absolute opposites. You do not put yourself in the middle you are only to strive for the light.

I am a (very ignorant) student of mythology and this idea is not strictly Buddhist, it is seen in Hindu literature, among others, and in reality (historically) probably originated in Vedic thought.

It is interesting when you think about it. Modern Western philosophy ala Descartes says: “I think therefore I am.” To which Eastern religion replies: “Who are you between two thoughts?”
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by TineDoes »

Hi Remote1
Yes Phew! I hope you had a wonderful nights sleep after that. Going on the forum today was like opening a present!!!
Your explanation is perfect and I think I am getting in inkling to what is meant by dualism as Leonard Cohen uses it in his work.
Saying this and(Always a 'but') staying with the Post-structuralism -'destabillised meaning' as regards to texts (Yes, I went and read up about it because I'd never heard of it or Structuralism) the meaning or truth in what you write depends upon the way I (the reader) perceive it which in turn depends on my points of reference, cultural background, education, whatever I have read etc. So when I say I understand what you are saying, it may not be the same as you wrote it. But I found it very clear.

I am also drinking in Holydoves post's on Buddism. Now on to Humbled's post.
"There’s no forsaking what you love ...."

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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by holydove »

TineDoes, thank you for the Ira Nadel reference - perfect!

Remote1 & humbled, thank you for your posts about duality - very clear & insightful explanations! It is true that Hinduism, the Vedas, etc., also talk about the illusion of duality. I don't know anything about post-structuralist thought, so that is clearly remote1's field of expertise, but it sounds like it does contain some very similar ideas - thank you for that contribution.

My only addition (I know - I always have an "addition" - forgive me) - anyway, my addition is that the crucial, underlying notion of duality (at least in Buddhism) is our perception of "self and other" - it means what you indicated about our false perception of the separateness of opposing phenomena, (or any phenomena) - but it also refers to our illusory perception that we, as entities, are separate from other perceived entities; and to our illusory perception that anyone or anything has any inherent reality or existence, apart from everything else. The truth of that matter, according to Buddhism, is called "interdependence" - means, to put it simply, that everything in the phenomenal world is connected to everything else, and nothing could possibly exist by itself, not even for an instant. This refers to the level of "relative reality", where the phenomenal world exists, but everything that constitutes the phenomenal world only exists relative to everything else. There are all kinds of contemplation practices in Buddhism (that I can't get into right now) that aim to "desconstruct" these "constructs of mind" that produce the illusion that things/entities have their own inherent reality, separate from all other things. Then there is the level of "absolute reality", where nothing even really exists at all.

These beautiful lines from Democracy seem apropos: "It's coming from the feel/ that this ain't exactly real/ or it's real but it ain't exactly there. . ."
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by remote1 »

holydove wrote: My only addition (I know - I always have an "addition" - forgive me) - anyway, my addition is that the crucial, underlying notion of duality (at least in Buddhism) is our perception of "self and other" - it means what you indicated about our false perception of the separateness of opposing phenomena, (or any phenomena) - but it also refers to our illusory perception that we, as entities, are separate from other perceived entities; and to our illusory perception that anyone or anything has any inherent reality or existence, apart from everything else.
Just a quick aside, Holydove, as post-structuralism (which I am using as a springboard here) is clearly off-topic. :D

The rejection of the binary opposition between self and other is also a crucial aspect of post-structuralist philosophy. Post-structuralism is highly critical of structuralist thinkers such as Emmanuel Levinas, Claude Lévi-Strauss, structuralist Michel Foucault, and Jacques Lacan, who were all big on the Self and the Other.

I just had a look at Wikipedia (for what it's worth) on Post-Structuralism to see what they had to say about this, and I came up with the following quote, which seems to echo what you were saying earlier:
Post-structuralists hold that the concept of "self" as a separate, singular, and coherent entity is a fictional construct.
Anyway, sorry to bore you with this, but I thought I ought to mention it for the sake of being thorough. In fact, I was about to put "self/other" down on my list of examples for TineDoes last night, and then forgot... It was getting late!

Cheers! ;-)
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by TineDoes »

holydove wrote:There are all kinds of contemplation practices in Buddhism (that I can't get into right now) that aim to "desconstruct" these "constructs of mind" that produce the illusion that things/entities have their own inherent reality, separate from all other things. Then there is the level of "absolute reality", where nothing even really exists at all.
Thank you Holydove for your clear explanation of Buddhism concept about the ‘interdependency’ of the whole phenomenal world and ‘relative-reality’ and the Buddhists’ pursuit of understanding of this. I can relate strongly to that. The concept in Buddhism that I find difficult to comprehend is this ‘absolute’ or ‘ultimate’ reality, for which tere are no words, that both you and Humbled talk about. But you need not go into that. I have loads of food for thought to be getting on with.
Tine

Then I came back from where I’d been.
My room, it looked the same –
But there was nothing left between
The Nameless and the Name.
"There’s no forsaking what you love ...."

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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by humbled »

One thing to take into account, if you want to get serious about the idea of Buddhism informing Cohen’s lyrics, is some things just don’t fit. For example Cohen speaks of love in both senses passion/lust, and romantic love. If you want to insist on a strict Buddhist interpretation you have to view the love Cohen speaks of as ONLY the first type (passion/lust).

The idea of romantic love does not exist in Eastern philosophy or reality unit quite recently. It only first appears in Western literature/lyric in medieval times with the Troubadours and the (German version) Minnesingers. They sang of “The one whom the eyes have made welcome to the heart”…”and it is there perfect love is born from the eyes and the heart”… This is the rapture of the longing for the two to be one. Even Eros (or the little valentine guy) didn’t represent romance as he does today. If you want convincing look in the literature at what the names written on those arrows were…that ain’t romantic love.

It was still resisted even in the west in many quarters until almost our own time. (You are CATHOLIC you will NOT marry a BAPTIST). The idea that we have in modern times (of falling in love) would have been seen as selfishness to the point of being apostate in pre-medieval western thought and much later in the east. What you had previous to this was arraigned marriages. It had everything to do with politics (family, community, church, national) NOT romance. It was not only practiced at the level of Nobility it was ubiquitous. It is still seen today in Fundamentalist communities (most visibly in Muslim countries) where young children are joined (sometimes at birth) in an arraigned marriage. How can an 8 year old wed because of a romantic inclination??? It is not that someone in an arraigned marriage cannot, in time, fall in love but it is not what is intended or even seen as useful by society or the church.


So if you want to be pedantic about the Buddhist influences I don’t see how you can also hold that Cohen was ever speaking of romance it must always be lust. I don’t see how you can have it both ways.
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by remote1 »

humbled wrote:One thing to take into account, if you want to get serious about the idea of Buddhism informing Cohen’s lyrics, is some things just don’t fit. . . I don’t see how you can have it both ways.
I think that one thing which has to be remembered when dealing with Leonard Cohen (and this was discussed earlier in the thread, but this is admittedly a long thread, and you may not have read it all), is that he does not endorse whole systems of thought in his lyrics. He uses several for his own poetic purposes but retains his intellectual freedom and detachment. He himself has repeatedly expressed in various interviews that he does not take Buddhism overly seriously. The answer to whether his lyrics are influenced by Buddhism seems so far to have been that some of them are. Nobody has yet claimed that Cohen's lyrics are strictly Buddhist.

I would say that your scepticism is legitimate, but in the same way, one can wonder how Cohen can be both Christian and Jewish in his songs. How can you have it both ways? Well, he obviously can; you can do lots of things with words...

FYI:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21054&start=15#p220260 (Remote1)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21054&start=30#p220505 (Lilifyre)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21054&start=60#p222343 (TipperaryAnn)
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by humbled »

Actually there is a method to my madness or maybe madness to my method. I really want to get feedback on a bit of a different track but wanted to be stark enough in starting it so that people could see where I was trying to get. From my experience I knew I could count on members here not to take the previous post as an attack on them or their ideas and so it felt very safe to do it this way. I wouldn’t have attempted that post on most forums.

I’m stuck for time right now but will be back with the questions to which I’d like to hear everyone’s answers.
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by holydove »

humbled wrote:One thing to take into account, if you want to get serious about the idea of Buddhism informing Cohen’s lyrics, is some things just don’t fit. For example Cohen speaks of love in both senses passion/lust, and romantic love. If you want to insist on a strict Buddhist interpretation you have to view the love Cohen speaks of as ONLY the first type (passion/lust).
The idea of romantic love does not exist in Eastern philosophy or reality unit quite recently.
Humbled, first I will echo remote1's statement that noone is saying, or insisting, that LC's lyrics are "strictly" Buddhist - far from it! - his lyrics clearly draw on several systems of thought, & on his own personal experiences. I am reminded of a quote from one of his friends (I forget which one), I think it's in Nadel's biography, where she said, "nobody owns Leonard" - I'd say that applies to individual people & systems of thought - if anything, his own mind might be said to be his spiritual path (which is actually quite Buddhist! - as Buddhism teaches that the path is not something "out there" - your mind is the path & your mind is the practice). Rules regarding how one lives are rather de-emphasized (unless you become a monk or nun, & in Buddhism that can be temporary if you want it to be); in fact, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was very instrumental in bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the west, used to say that one sign of a "good Buddhist" is "ignoring the rules"! (I love that - he was very funny, by the way - the Teachers usually do have a great sense of humor - in fact, that was another sign of a "good Buddhist" according to him - sense of humor).

But I don't know what you mean when you say that romantic love doesn't exist in Buddhism - I haven't read every text that exists (there are literally at least thousands) - but as far as I know, romantic love is not addressed one way or the other in Buddhist scriptures (maybe that's what you mean?) - I don't know of any teachings regarding it, but I'm pretty sure it's never been forbidden. Maybe you mean that in places like Tibet & Japan, marriages have traditionally been "arranged"?

But two things come to mind that I think would be relevant: one is that Buddhism is said to be a body of teachings that is "alive", & Teachers have said that the way it is practiced is meant to change according to the places & times in which it is practiced (within a certain range, but the range is quite wide). In fact, my own teachers have made certain changes in the practice in order to make it more accessible & "doable" within present-day, western life circumstances. The essential teachings don't have to be changed, because they will always apply in all times & places; but the way in which they are taught (e.g. language, medium of transmission, etc.) can change. There has arisen what has become known as "Western Buddhism" which, again, doesn't mean that the teachings themselves are changed, but that the way in which the practice unfolds, & is transmitted, is somewhat different from the way it was done in the East, hundreds or thousands of years ago.

I would also mention that a major teaching in Buddhism is "fearlessness" - it has been said to mean: having the courage to really be who you are. And according to that, if romantic love is part of who you are, Buddhism would say, "go for it"! It's certainly not the "goal" of the practice, but it can be, & for many practitioners is, part of the path.

The other thing is, like I said, I don't know of any Buddhist teachings regarding whether, or how, one might engage in romantic love; but what I can tell you for sure is that, in the Buddhist community with which I have been involved for more than a decade, both passion/lust and romantic love are quite fully alive and well!! And they are definitely not discouraged by the Teachers of the lineages with whom I have studied. That's my experience, that's all I can say. . .

Edit - humbled, your post arose while I was writing mine, so I want to say, don't worry, I didn't take your other post as an attack, & my intention is not to defend anything, just to give info & describe my experience/understanding of things. . .
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by remote1 »

holydove wrote:I would also mention that a major teaching in Buddhism is "fearlessness" - it has been said to mean: having the courage to really be who you are.
[Holydove, while we are waiting for Humbled's questions, could you please recommend a good introductory book or two on Buddhism? I find everything you write about it incredibly stimulating and I would like to find out more. This above, in particular, is raising a couple more questions for me. First, how do you know who you are? Second, if duality between the self and the other is illusory, how can you be who you are? Oh, and please, don't feel you have to answer these questions! :D ]
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by humbled »

Remote1:
Thank’s for the reply. Yours and holydove’s replies were what I expected. If you’ve had the experience of web forums that I have had you know that on most forums my last post would have gotten me flamed with “you have totally misrepresented…”, “that’s the only way you can win an argument…” as if there was a right and wrong when discussing personal feelings and opinions. The exchanges here are always of a much higher character.

In regards to Buddhism: are you at all familiar with Joseph Campbell’s work?

Hollydove (and anyone interested):

You have understood me exactly. Most people don’t realize that two people falling in love and deciding to get married is a foreign concept for most of human history.

Of course I would never be naive enough to try to say romance didn’t exist as a concept until some itinerant musicians in 12th century Europe brought it up, only that it was not a consideration relative to culture and the myths that informed them. It would have been seen as anti-family, culture, etc. and just plain nutty. No one could have written literature or song declaring it THE path to happiness, not if they expected to remain a part of the community or in some cases remain alive! And people would never have stood against these forces to say “I don’t care I love X and I’ll marry them no matter what.” It would have been against all their teaching and they would have had far too much to lose.

That is where I wanted to go with this. First let me say I absolutely understand no one I have seen here is taking an absolutist approach to anything so if I do come across that way I am just not doing a good job in stating my points.

Pick a song (not just hloydove but anyone else who sees a Buddhist influence and is interested in this discussion). If you see Buddhist influence might this not limit the possible interpretations of that song? Say a song could be (to some) interpreted as either one about a romantic situation or a passion/lust situation depending on how they looked at it, or maybe both at the same time. If you looked at that song and saw a strong Buddhist influence (knowing romance as we know it in modern western culture) wouldn’t that mean that you would have to reject the possible romantic interpretation or reject the Buddhist influence. That was what I meant by having it both ways.

I’ll stop there for now to keep it simple (for me). I hope I get a number of opinions to this post.
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by TineDoes »

Humbled - your action of provoking a reaction has worked. Read the following lines from LC's 'I came so far from beauty'' back to front and you have my reaction to your post.
- And where I would surrender
Now I would attack -
I'm glad the thread is continuing.
humbled wrote: If you looked at that song and saw a strong Buddhist influence (knowing romance as we know it in modern western culture) wouldn’t that mean that you would have to reject the possible romantic interpretation or reject the Buddhist influence.
Referring back to Remote1's writing about 'post-structuralism'. This gives me an understanding, that I like to go with, that any truth about a (leonard Cohen) text is 'unstable' and not in the text itself but with the reader (signifier) and is dependant upon his or her basis of understanding given his or her cultural and religous background, knowledge and social position etc.
I think anybody as a reader is free to try and get a glympse or learn from how the 'other' (given that in western everyday life we do percieve a difference between the self and the other) looks at a text. I personally do not see why one would want to reject any one influence on LC texts for another. No I revel in the idea that it is possible to change positions when looking at Leonard Cohen's lyrics in this case to the Buddist influence.

This is a Leonard Cohen quote stolen from B4real in her thread 'something positive something negative'
"I understand that my work is confusing enough to be construed as many things, I feel the same way about it myself”.
"There’s no forsaking what you love ...."

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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by holydove »

remote1 wrote:
[Holydove, while we are waiting for Humbled's questions, could you please recommend a good introductory book or two on Buddhism? I find everything you write about it incredibly stimulating and I would like to find out more. This above, in particular, is raising a couple more questions for me. First, how do you know who you are? Second, if duality between the self and the other is illusory, how can you be who you are? Oh, and please, don't feel you have to answer these questions! :D ][/quote]

Remote1, I would recommend these books: When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron (& anything else Pema Chodron has written, e.g.,The Wisdom of No Escape, Start Where You Are, The Places That Scare You). Pema is a really amazing teacher & writer; she makes the Buddhist teachings very accessible for Western minds; she is from the U.S., is a mom, & was a primary school teacher, before she got divorced, discovered Buddhism, & became a Tibetan Buddhist monk.
Also, Indestructible Truth by Reginald A. Ray is a great book by another great western teacher & writer.
The Path Is The Goal, or The Myth of Freedom, or Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa (he was the first major teacher of Tibetan Buddhism in the West)
Ruling Your World by Sakyong Mipham (this author is the current head of the lineage that has bcome known as Shamabhala Buddhism; he is also Chogyam Trungpa's biological son).
You could start with any of the above, but personally I think Pema Chodron (esp. When Things Fall Apart) might be the best intro (it was the first one I read & it got me totally hooked!)
The above-mentioned are books on Tibetan Buddhism; if you want to read about Zen: Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shrunyu Suzuki is a great one. Also: Dropping Ashes On The Buddha by Seung Sahn is very good. But I'd say Zen Mind Beginner's Mind is the best.

About your wonderful questions (you are a gem - I love it!), I honestly wouldnt' dare to claim to have those answers - but I'll play a little bit, for the fun of it. . . I'll take your second one first: you are right, in Absolute Reality, not only is there no duality, but there is noone there at all. But since we don't live there yet, we have to live & function on the level of relative reality, & "live our life as if it's real" (ring a bell?) even if we know, or kind of sense, that it's not. We have to live according to our perception of reality, while we work/aspire to expand our perception. Of course, we don't even have an accurate perception of relative reality because we think entities/things are separate from each other. As for your first question, that is the (alleged) purpose of meditation practice: to find out who or what you are; ultimately (unless you are enlightened) we don't know who or what we really are; but we usually have some kind of experience, on the level where we think we exist; so being who you are, I think, would mean to welcome & manifest whatever that experience seems to be; to be honest & genuine about your experience; to not deny, pretend or manipulate, as we are so often wont to do. (The above is not meant to be answers, just some thoughts. . .)

Humbled: honestly, no, I don't see different interpretations (e.g. romantic interpretation & Buddhist interpretation) as mutually exclusive in the least bit. In fact, there are many lines where I see both meanings (& sometimes a 3rd or 4th meaning) in LC's lyrics. I often see Buddhism & Judaism, or Judaism & Christianity in the same lines. Or sometimes I see Judaism, romantic love, & Buddhism all at once. I don't see that as a problem at all. I can even sometimes see "opposite" meanings in the same line. For me, this is part of LC's genius, & the beauty of his work. More often than not, any given line can have multiple (even apparently conflicting) meanings. And I don't see any reason why interpreting a line one way, would prevent one from also interpreting it another way - so no, I don't think any particular interpretation is limiting in any way.
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Re: Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

Post by remote1 »

Many thanks for the bibliography Holydove; I am really looking forward to getting started on the reading!

And thanks too for your thoughts in answer to my questions; they are very clear and make sense to me. I am now really glad I asked them, as I hesitated and almost deleted my post last night. But you did well to make your answers relevant to Leonard: the questions were off topic, but at least the answers were not! :D

I wish I knew who I am so I could seek the courage to really be who I am...
Last edited by remote1 on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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