Master Song

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
GinaDCG
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Re: Master Song

Postby GinaDCG » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:15 am

Good insights every one. Thanks for sharing your thoughts - it'll give me more to think about on my next dog walk (when I can spare a thought from my concern for Pete's Frosty that is.)
John Etherington
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Re: Master Song

Postby John Etherington » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:18 am

German shepherd? Nudge nudge, wink wink!
GinaDCG
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Re: Master Song

Postby GinaDCG » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:38 am

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink -- actually, Yes -- sort of. JaneDog is half German Shepherd, half beagle.

Hope this isn't TMI: My teen aged daughter was attending a boarding school in Ohio. The students helped run a diary on an adjacent farm. My child (who HATES rising before noon when at home) actually enjoyed getting up at 4:30AM to tend to the cows. When the barn dog (a beagle) had a litter she begged and pleaded to adopt one. I was assured that daddy was also a beagle --and indeed, when we drove up for the end-of-term ceremonies there was a male beagle hanging around.

So, I agreed. I wanted to name her Ginger as her coat was a striking array of browns, lighter on the distal parts of her body and darkening to an almost black line down her back. "No!" said my (obviously) teen-age daughter. "None of your fancy names for MY dog. She's a plain Jane dog." The name stuck. She's Plain JaneDog.

And when JaneDog passed 40 pounds my daughter admitted that that a male German shepherd lived on a nearby farm, and this shepherd spent a lot of time with the female beagle.

Daughter has not lived at home for some years now - so JaneDog is now, in effect, my dog.

Her collar, however, is made of cloth --- with her name imprinted on it. And the "details" which fascinate JaneDog are: food, food, food, more food, sticks, and food. (And naps. And chasing squirrels.)

(Oh! And she is deeply suspicious of snowmen -- particularly if they are wearing human clothing. She just can't decide if they deserve her respect or not. They look human, they don't look human. They smell human, they don't smell human. Definitely suspicious.)
John Etherington
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Re: Master Song

Postby John Etherington » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:25 am

Well that kept you up, Gina! I wonder what your dog would make of Leonard if he's "just another snowman standing in the rain and sleet"?
Last edited by John Etherington on Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lilifyre
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Re: Master Song

Postby Lilifyre » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:47 am

John Etherington wrote:Well that kept you up, Gina! I wonder what your dog would make of Leonard if he's "just another snowman standing in the rain and heat"?
Strange that you mention that particular line from the recitation of 1000 Kisses Deep, John. I was listening to it recently and came up with a picture. I used to do more such drawings a few years ago so I decided to see what would show up when I put that piece on repeat and put pencil to paper. I'd love to share my drawing with the forum, but don't know how to post a picture. The FAQs didn't offer much help. If someone can tell me how to go about it, I'd be ever so grateful. Please PM me with the instructions (step by step instructions, please).

One other thing, John. Isn't it "I'm just another snowman standing in the rain and sleet"??????

Lili
Lili
"Well, that's my story
I admit it's broken and it's bleak
But all the twisted pieces fit
A 1000 kisses deep."
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Master Song

Postby LisaLCFan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:00 am

holydove,

Yes, thanks for that link to the very interesting article! Something not mentioned in the article, but which clearly supports its thesis, is the variation in lyrics to I'm Your Man that Leonard sometimes sings in concert, notably on the Cohen Live CD and, I can personally report, at the Las Vegas concert in November 2009, in which he sings, "If you want another kind of love, I'll wear a leather mask for you!" :shock: :lol: Not too subtle!
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Master Song

Postby LisaLCFan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:02 am

Oh, and in case anybody wants the link to hear Leonard's performance of I'm Your Man in LV, here you go (courtesy of IrishAl, of course), enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-LLIeGDTN4
John Etherington
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Re: Master Song

Postby John Etherington » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:17 am

Lilifyre - you're right, of course - it's "sleet" not "heat" (it's late, here!). Anyway, I've corrected the error above.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Master Song

Postby LisaLCFan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:26 am

One more thing... (having just read that article thanks to holydove, and having re-watched the I'm Your Man video from Las Vegas, all sorts of interesting ideas are going through my head...), but what is really intriguing to me, in light of these things, is Leonard's habit of kneeling frequently throughout his concerts, in fact, kneeling before us. I had always assumed that the kneeling position put him in a certain emotional place that enabled him primarily to really connect with the song, and, secondarily, to connect with the audience. After reading that article, maybe the kneeling is primarily for us, the audience, and Leonard, as the submissive, is giving himself to us (metaphorically, or not!). I rather like that idea!

Any thoughts on this? (Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread, since it is supposed to be about Master Song, but it seems all to be related!)
John Etherington
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Re: Master Song

Postby John Etherington » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:34 pm

I'm concerned that there might be some hidden agenda when I click the "submit" icon, here!
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remote1
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Re: Master Song

Postby remote1 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:18 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Good one! Clicking on the "submit" icon will never mean the same to me again!
"We are so lightly here"
GinaDCG
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Re: Master Song

Postby GinaDCG » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:55 pm

Well, John, yes it did keep me up a bit -- but I was very proud of myself that I was able to tie together the 2 threads I have been contributing to to the past few days -- this one and Pete's snowman, in the form of my dog's confusion over whether she should submit to snowmen. (The Dog Whisperer would be appalled with our daily walks -- but JaneDog has been taught to sit whenever she meets a new human.) So, after an initial bounce accompanied by a look back to see if I'll look the other way and break the rules, she would gather herself up and (with muscles twitching in eager joy) sit for Leonard -- waiting for the pat on the head.
Cate
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Re: Master Song

Postby Cate » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:24 pm

GinaDCG wrote: JaneDog is half German Shepherd, half beagle.
a german shepherd and a beagle, I bet she's very cute!

The German Shepherd is interesting in Master Song and fits the discussion, because she is walking him, again a bit of role/master reversal. He's German but she has him collared (as given by her master) and she walks him.
holydove
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Re: Master Song

Postby holydove » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:26 pm

Hello, all! Because I have been overwhelmed with a very recent move (unpacking, etc.), I wasn't able to visit the forum as often as I would have liked, but I would like to respond to some of your responses to that article (please forgive me for the length of this post):

Remote1, thank you for clearing up that matter of the "mails" - your post from the Roosevelt letter is truly hilarious!
Lisa, I had the same thoughts about the leather mask and you wrote so beautifully about the kneeling during performances, as "submission" to his audience - interesting insight, thank you for pointing that out.
Cate, I believe that the author does touch on the spiritual aspect when he talks about the ultimate purpose of the dom-sub interaction, which, he says, is an altered or even transcendent state of consciousness; in Tibetan & Zen Buddhism, which we know are of great interest to LC, the purpose of spiritual practice is to change one's consciousness & perception of reality. The author also speaks of the intense trust & devotion that is required in this kind of partnership. And regardless of what D. Cordes makes of it, in my humble opinion, if LC has engaged in this sort of activity, I would guess that it is, at least partially, one of his many ways of seeking spiritual enlightenment, along with release from pain and suffering. Also, I don't think he's saying that LC purposely hides these meanings, but that some who are listening/reading, may not recognize or understand the references, and I think that is entirely possible, if not probable; especially if one has not read Beautiful Losers (most, if not all, forum members have read it, but there are many who listen to LC's music who may not have read it). Obviously, LC is constantly making multiple references with any one phrase, so that any given sexual interaction is also taking place on emotional & spiritual levels (& vice versa); my sense is that this author is aware of that, & his purpose was to share an awareness of this particular realm of sexual/personal interaction, of which many listeners/readers might not be aware.
John E, I agree that it is a stretch to interpet If It Be Your Will & Chelsea Hotel from this perspective. But I can see where it could come into play with Memories - I could be wrong, but I have always thought there could be a somewhat deeper layer to what he is saying there, considering not only all the pleading & mentioning of faith & trust, but also the iron cross. And yes, the absence of any mention of Death of a Lady's Man is surprising, not only because of the orgies, cross-dressing, & gender shifting, but how about that sharpened metal spoon & all that blood. I'm also surprised that although he mentions several verses from Light As A Breeze, he leaves out the part about ". . .there's blood on every bracelet. . . and "it's please baby please baby please. . ."

By the way, I had read that article a long time ago, & didn't remember all of the "little details", but after all your responses, I read it again, & I'm glad that I did; I still find it quite interesting & enlightening.
John Etherington
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Re: Master Song

Postby John Etherington » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:57 pm

Hi Holydove,

Very good post...I agree with almost everything you say, here. I "got" the leather mask reference the first time I heard it (on one of the earlier tours). You've made a very perceptive remark regarding "blood on every bracelet". I hadn't thought too much about what that might signify, before. I agree that Cordes presents his ideas in a very positive and all-encompasing context. Regarding the phrase I pinned an Iron Cross to my lapel...I've always thought that this was Leonard adding a further dimension to the song. Why would Leonard wear a German/Nazi symbol? To try and win the tallest blondest girl, of course...namely, Nico!

All the best, John E

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