My take on "Take This Waltz"

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:44 pm

Hum... right now, I can only guess that they are not the same as John Irving's. I'll come back.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:51 pm

Tchoc

Ok now im confused, it has been a while since i read "the world according to Garp"

David
There is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in. lc
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:29 am

It seems that it is my karma. I mean confusing people.

Vienna is recurrent in Irving's novels. Like bears.

Now to answer to your question : I don't know. I don't have a clue.

What do you think?
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:33 pm

Tchoc,

Given the psychological nature of the poem and then there is Freud and Vienna. This is one connection that i can think of.

David
There is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in. lc
holydove
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby holydove » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:39 pm

dperrings wrote:Tchoc,

Given the psychological nature of the poem and then there is Freud and Vienna. This is one connection that i can think of.

David
Yes, Vienna is known as the City of Dreams because of the Freud connection. It is also known as the City of Music (which I think may be relevant here), because for centuries, it has been a city where many great composers have lived & worked, & where they have composed music which is considered immortal. To name a few that have lived & composed there: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Strauss (father & son), Mahler, Schoenberg, Webern, & Berg. Vienna is also the place where the waltz form originated, & Strauss II is known as the "Waltz King", because of the waltz form which he created, which is known as the Viennese Waltz. The dance was actually considered rather decadent & promiscuous at the time, because instead of being a "communal dance', where the dancers faced outward (that was the commonly accepted dance form at the time), in the Viennese Waltz, the dancers faced each other & looked directly into each others' eyes, with their hands on each others' waists, etc. Originally, Vienna attracted alot of these great composers because the government gave alot of support to the arts. But then, it seems, & possibly because of all the artists living there, the musical energy of the city took on a life of its own, & composers were drawn to it, & once they were there (some of them moved there from other countries, esp. Germany), they did not want to leave.

For Leonard Cohen, I'd say that music & poetry are intimately intertwined with his spiritual quest. Irving Layton has said that Leonard works out his salvation through his poetry. And Leonard has said that the act of creating is something that he feels brings him closer to the Creator. I don't know if the choice of "Vienna" would have the same implications for Lorca (it might. . .), but for Leonard, as well as being a tribute to Lorca, I think Vienna would also have significance because of the connection to musical inspiration & the huge volumes of immortal music which has been composed there. So in this context, & for someone for whom the creation of music is, in essence, a sacramental ritual which brings him closer to God, one might say that Vienna, because of its nature as the City of Music, could also be seen as a Holy City (maybe an analogy to Jerusalem?), or perhaps the City of God.
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:37 pm

Holydove you are the abondance of life. And all this while holding an olive leaf in the beack!
This is impressive, seriously. :D Thanks!

Dperrings, Freud, this is relevant for a song that uses the mechanism of the subconscious, "talking" in images. This is what poetry does in general, but to wink at Freud during such a poem is absolutely necessary. And we also have to wince at the political, social, economical state of the city at the time also.

You two had stimulated me with thoughts, and now I have a few, that I did not previously had.

Indeed Vienna is a huge atmosphere in itself. Here such a gem is casted in fine gold to provide a jewel exquisitely crafted.

The original by Lorca seems addressed to a dead lover or a dead love (that can also be a symbol) that was experienced in this town. While my feelings are that Cohen is speaking to a living one. While Lorca is grieving the past, he is passing by different universal stages of mourning throughout the poem, Cohen is shaping a viable - more than this : enjoyable - future for two wounded, maybe, but alive, lovers. Just my feelings, though. There is no scientific proof with feelings.

Both versions, the original by Lorca and Cohen's version are there :

http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/waltz.htm

So I see Sheshina in action, in Leonard's version - repairing the world - in this kabbalistic atmosphere.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:29 pm

To Tchoc and Holydove,

so this morning i come across this line:

"Through the arch of Elvira
Im going to see you pass
to see your thighs
and begin weeping"

by Lorca

that LC say he stumbled across when he was 15 and from then on he was hooked on Lorca.

I think i have fallen down the rabbit hole.

david
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:02 am

I like this description by LC about his introduction to LORCA at 15.
(from “Morning Becomes Eclectic”, Interview 1997, KCRW Radio, USA)

WOW!!!

(San Francisco 3 7 1993)

“I accepted the poet's invitation to enter into this world

where fistfuls of ants were thrown at the sun
and crystals obscured the pine trees
and there were the arches of Elvira
to pass through
and begin weeping
and there were those thighs
that slipped away
like schools of silver minnows.

That was the irresistible
seductive invitation
I could not resist.

I slipped into that fist, I did,

I lived among the ants
and I learned their ways.
I mastered the crystals.
I healed many alcoholic gurus
with my crystal powers.
I passed through
the arches of Elvira and I did,
I began weeping.
That's nothing new.
I saw those thighs
glistening like hunting horns
and I touched them, I did,
I pulled my hand away
and I slipped away
like a school of silver minnows.

I've never left that world.
I stand here tonight
and I invite you all to join me here.

There's lots of space,
there's no boundaries,
there's no politics,
no language.

All you have to do
is celebrate the sunlight
coming through the hair
of your beloved

. It's a simple thing.”

David Perrings
There is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in. lc
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:45 pm

***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:22 pm

Tchoc,

I just read the essay by Harold, fantastic. I liked his statement

"Literature is only one context for poetry, one that has proven extremely popular in a culture quite alienated from both the earth and poetry, the language of our lives on the earth."

very true.

David Perrings
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Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Yep!

But Leonard Cohen is not in their list of contemporary Canadian poets. :neutral:

http://www.library.utoronto.ca/canpoetry/index_poet.htm

I wonder if they are walking the same Earth as the rest of the world.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:39 pm

Tchoc,

or breathing the same air.

Is harold involved in this site ?

David
There is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in. lc
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:27 am

I don't know him. I don't think so. Ask him. :D
He looks like a former student of Irving Layton to me, or something. 8)

*

Take this Waltz is such a magnet to me. Here I am, still there, exploring my new idea of kabbalistic atmosphere that repairs the world. I don't have time but to do it bit by bit.

Lorca :
In Vienna there are ten little girls
A shoulder for death to cry on
And a forest of dried pigeons


In original by Lorca there is no future, all the children die (later the little boys are "painted blue" by the death in the form of a piano). Here I figure out that the ten little girls are a support for death to express itself, death doing an action, then there ia a forest of stuffed pigeons to be seen. A forest. pigeons. Stuffed pigeons. A forest of stuffed pigeons. The picture of a grotesque caricature of what life is. Forget the cute fresh little girls filled with all the hopes of humanity : dead.

Cohen :
Now, in Vienna there are ten pretty women
There's a shoulder where death comes to cry


Now, in Vienna, in the present reality, but in the future of the original, there is no such thing. There is ten pretty women. Ha!
and there is a shoulder where death comes to cry - death is not in action there, it is passive, and Life is so strong that it can provide a shoulder for the weakness of death. Now, In Vienna, there is ten pretty women. Ha!
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
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dperrings
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby dperrings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:20 pm

Tchoc,

I listened to the two CBC interviews with LC and he talks about translating LORCA's poem into english (or maybe it was one of the articles that i read). I really do not see the poem as a simple translation.

Lorca words are ten little girls
and LC words are ten pretty women

LC is speaking about adults and Lorca is speaking about children.
Lorca maybe dealing with the death of innocents where in LC the innocents is already dead and gone.

maybe i am completely crazy.

also tried sending you a message yesterday but it looks like it is stuck in my outbox. Do you get a message yesterday ?

David
There is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in. lc
Tchocolatl
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Re: My take on "Take This Waltz"

Postby Tchocolatl » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:58 pm

It is not necessary to be crazy to enter into a discussion with me, but it helps. 8)

I had two similar PM in my inbox. Thanks!

Here you can consider me as a chatbot a bit like this one :

http://www.chatbots.org/chatbot/a.l.i.c.e/

although in the real life I am an old gregarious sorceress, really. Not the type that a fair young man like you could have sexual fantasm about or something. But a granny is always ready to chat with any soulful spirit, he? :D

Many innocents indeed died. But the ten little girls arrived at maturity. Don't they?
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers

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