rags of light

[hydriot]

Someone else said some general thing about men not hating their wives.

That was me. These days, I don't think husbands and wives ever hate each other. When divorce required an Act of Parliament, yes, but not now. Divorce is so easy (too easy in my opinion) that spouses part before they ever get to hate each other.

My son, aged 20, said something very observant: "The opposite of love is not hate ... it's indifference".

[lazariuk]

Divorce is so easy (too easy in my opinion) that spouses part before they ever get to hate each other.

You could have written "before they ever get to love each other" and it would have been as true, if not more so.

I don't cry often, but I did cry when I heard through some very thin walls the following coming into my very dark room

In this crazy world we live in
love is ended before it's begun
too many moonlight kisses
seem to cool in the warmth of the sun

[charlajoy]

Very good! Why is the "understanding" each other the most satisfying experience??? This exchange has been no exception. The hate that I speak of, that I spoke of is the indifference, the lack of engagement (emotionally, spiritually, physically), and most specifically to me it is the complete separation of spirit and soul (such a coldness), the pulling away of onesself. I smile, Jack, when I think of your comment being addressed to me, that he could not have possibly hated me......and you know the answer to that, that I am not above anyone else's experiences in life. Thank you, both Hydriot and Lazariuk, for coming to my rescue and posting something, even anything, when I thought for sure I was beating a dead horse and felt rather stupid about it. Have an enrichened, sweet day, Charlajoy

BTW, Jack, where in the "world?" does Leonard say that he hated and then grew back in love? Did you place two pieces of poetry together? I wish I had the same sense you did. I analyze (can't help it) and categorize his poetry, placing pieces with different women. I don't claim any of my prognosis as fact, but nonetheless, I find that all the horizons of my imagination are induced into this act.

[lazariuk]

BTW, Jack, where in the "world?" does Leonard say that he hated and then grew back in love? Did you place two pieces of poetry together?

I was just looking at the poem you wrote about where he says that he hated her because her beauty died. The unclean start.

a little later in the same poem he writes "I always hide her beauty from myself until it is too late to praise her for it"

and then later

"I stared at her as she became beautiful and calm"

It doesn't seem to me that her beauty died and therefore he never hated her.

[charlajoy]

"I stared at her as she became beautiful and calm"

It doesn't seem to me that her beauty died and therefore he never hated her.

OK, but the significance seems to be not that he never hated her, but that he didn't hate her continually. In this case, I'm so happy to use two negatives in one sentence because it fits so very well...

But...If I may, I will not let this one go. As a wo-man, I read into it a little. I believed that I saw that to his eyes and heart, her inner beauty had faded and therefore he hated her. What I read into it is that when later he saw her beauty as he was ready to step on the boat, he was seeing her beauty as a sightseer would; it was the beauty of face and form that did not reflect her inward attractiveness to him. The time together was not redeemed, her blessing was neither given nor received; thus, I believed that the overall encounter showed a lack of unity, togetherness, and in proportion--lack of love of the kind that "binds us together." The passage, overall, is painful to me because I see the main character as a man who needs the unity but is not finding it in that relationship at that time, and I see a woman who is not aware of the terrible suffering of the relationship. charlajoy

[lazariuk]

The passage, overall, is painful to me because I see the main character as a man who needs the unity but is not finding it in that relationship at that time, and I see a woman who is not aware of the terrible suffering of the relationship. charlajoy

Will think a bit more about what you are trying to say.
Meanwhile
The poem you are looking at is "The Unclean Start"
Much later he wrote
"Starting is second
First we must part"

do you think that might relate?

[charlajoy]

The poem you are looking at is "The Unclean Start"
Much later he wrote
"Starting is second
First we must part"

do you think that might relate?

Don't know, Jack. Many of his encounters, according to my reading, are adjustments to parting and starting. I think I'll bring my personal experience in on this one to say that it must be nice to relate to someone (speaking as a woman) who would be wililng to begin again after the unclean start. The parting would not be so painful armed with the knowledge that it was for a new beginning. BTW, as a poet, Leonard refers to wives in several places. My understanding of this is that although not legally tied, he morally obligated himself until those relationships expired, etc. charla

p.s. maybe it's like this: I've been reading from The Art of Worldy Wisdom, by Baltasar Gracian. Entry 217 reads, "Neither love nor hate forever. Trust the friends of today as if they will be enemies tomorrow, and that of the worst kind. As this happens in reality, let it happen in your precaution. Do not put weapons in the hand of deserters from friendship to wage war with. On the other hand, leave the door of reconciliation open for enemies, and if it is also the gate of generosity so much the more safe. The vengeance of long ago is at times the torment of today, and the joy of the ill we have done is turned to grief."

[lazariuk]

I think I'll bring my personal experience in on this one to say that it must be nice to relate to someone (speaking as a woman) who would be wililng to begin again after the unclean start. The parting would not be so painful armed with the knowledge that it was for a new beginning.

It is to me one of the greatest sorrows in this world that we find it so hard to give each other permission to make mistakes. As if any of us can ever get it right the first time. It all comes back to that biggest mistake of all which is that making mistakes makes us bad.
Do you hear me boss, you made the biggest mistake of all, but you have my permission.

[charlajoy]

... one of the greatest sorrows in this world that we find it so hard to give each other permission to make mistakes. As if any of us can ever get it right the first time. It all comes back to that biggest mistake of all which is that making mistakes makes us bad.
Do you hear me boss, you made the biggest mistake of all, but you have my permission.

I like that. And I will add, "ahhh, X-Man, excuse me....you don't even need my permission to leave me--that's between you and your master --but for the continuous, overlapping mistake of not seeing my true beauty, I forgive you!"

Were you by any chance alive during the time of the 60's? In my perusal of The Favorite Game and Leonard's 60s clips, I am for the first time sentimental. It's viewing the searching faces, the degree of innocence and certain amounts of honesty along with the fair and easy styles that are just sucking me right in. OK, I never thought I would say this: I wish I could go back, maybe not forever...

[lazariuk]

Were you by any chance alive during the time of the 60's? In my perusal of The Favorite Game and Leonard's 60s clips, I am for the first time sentimental. It's viewing the searching faces, the degree of innocence and certain amounts of honesty along with the fair and easy styles that are just sucking me right in. OK, I never thought I would say this: I wish I could go back, maybe not forever...

I was there when people would look you in the eye and lay it on the line
as bobby dylan once said
You can always go back, you just can't go back all the way.
as tim Robbins once said
it is never too late to have a happy childhood
or as I might say "sweet and easy surrender"
learning to surf is much better than flying down mountains on out of control skies but God bless those who do take to the mountains. Leonard calls them saints.

[charlajoy]

Lazariuk wrote:
"I was there when people would look you in the eye and lay it on the line
as bobby dylan once said
You can always go back, you just can't go back all the way.
as tim Robbins once said
it is never too late to have a happy childhood
or as I might say "sweet and easy surrender"
learning to surf is much better than flying down mountains on out of control skies but God bless those who do take to the mountains. Leonard calls them saints."

Lazariuk, I JUST noticed the signature at the bottom of this last quote. EinsteinLazariuk....never heard of him, but I've been thinking for years of picking up an Einstein bio. Have any recommendations? What about the Lazariuk part? Anything written about this guy? Should be, if he's survived through the years. On the practical side, I've recently bought a pair of "bell bottoms" from the Gap, but sadly they lack the great quality of the 60s. Where, oh where, have all the good clothes gone? Or is that just a woman's lament? My 21-year old says that he just purchased the From the Room album of Leonard's, and apologize if I don't have that title correctly copied, which is why I will not put it in italics either. He's the one, the Great who introduced me to Leonard a couple months ago. As I will always acknowledge, my life's not been the same since. BTW, I'm going back, even if in graduations.

[lazariuk]

I've been thinking for years of picking up an Einstein bio. Have any recommendations?

no - the most I know about Einstein I learned from Buckminster Fuller. That is usually the direction I point people to who have an interest in someone's experiential knowledge about the Universe.

What about the Lazariuk part? Anything written about this guy?

No

My 21-year old says that he just purchased the From the Room album of Leonard's, and apologize if I don't have that title correctly copied, which is why I will not put it in italics either. He's the one, the Great who introduced me to Leonard a couple months ago. As I will always acknowledge, my life's not been the same since.

I don't know if you have ever mentioned if you have heard "Blue Alert"

[charlajoy]

to Lazariuk:

Blue Alert? Yes, I've listened to clips. The sad part right now ( ) is that I haven't been immersed in much beside Leonard. That should change (I hope). Because I was raised traditionally religious or is that religiously traditional(?), I've found myself in the process of being reborn over and over in my efforts to free myself without untying what I still need--until Leonard. I think I have come into the circle of rites now, and I can proceed to grow up. It's not that I've needed to become an adult, but I'd like to become more of who I am, As We All Would! And with that, I'm reminded of the Jackie Chan movie Who Am I? . As a sideline issue, who do I address that question to, by the way? (anybody know?). Oh, I know.

[lazariuk]

And with that, I'm reminded of the Jackie Chan movie Who Am I? . As a sideline issue, who do I address that question to, by the way? (anybody know?). Oh, I know.

I would like to pass on something that I saw Anjani write to another woman and I was very impressed with what she suggested:

do not ask silently, "who am I?"
but state aloud, "who i am."
and feel the answers in your body...in this way
you can feel your way through the darkness,
rather than wait for a sign
or search for an open door

[rmura]

On the following page:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pilgraeme/if_it_be.htm

...Leonard is quoted as having said "My favorite verse in it is 'All your children here in their rags of light'" in 1985 in Paroles et musique magazine. Does anyone have this interview, or at least know whether he said anything more about the verse or the song?

Thanks.

Ron