"do you" vs "do ya"

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
MaryB
Posts: 3960
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:40 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MaryB » Fri May 01, 2009 7:57 am

Spot on Lizzy - thanks
1993 Detroit 2008 Kitchener June 2-Hamilton June 3 & 4-Vienna Sept 24 & 25-London RAH Nov 17 2009 NYC Feb 19-Grand Prairie Apr 3-Phoenix Apr 5-Columbia May 11-Red Rocks Jun 4-Barcelona Sept 21-Columbus Oct 27-Las Vegas Nov 12-San Jose Nov 13 2010 Sligo Jul 31 & Aug 1-LV Dec 10 & 11 2012 Paris Sept 30-London Dec 11-Boston Dec 16 2013 Louisville Mar 30-Amsterdam Sept 20
User avatar
burningviolin
Posts: 740
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:50 am
Location: Ireland.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby burningviolin » Fri May 01, 2009 10:13 am

I like the 'Do you' actually. I think it rhymes more immediately then the ya as the word Hallelujah doesn't get used until a couple of lines later. I like the ooh sounds of you, music and you again.... "But you (ooh) don't really care for music (another ooh-ish sound!) do you" :)
2009 Liverpool 14/07/09, Dublin 20/07/09, Belfast 26/07/09, Lisbon 30/7/09, Barcelona 21/09/09.
2010 Sligo (x2), Lille 25/09/10 Las Vegas 11/12/2010
2012 Wembley 8/9/12, RHK 11/9/12
O2 London 2013 O2 Dublin 2013
"I've been where you're hanging, I think I can see how you're pinned."
UrPal
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby UrPal » Fri May 01, 2009 12:35 pm

...and the "ooh" and the "ah" follows the syncopation of the last syllables of hallel-ooh-yah. OK, it's not quite "doo-dum-dum-dum-di-do-dum-dum", but there's something really going on below.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25377
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Fri May 01, 2009 3:05 pm

With that in mind, I like the anachronistic "do ya" ;-) . For me, it's more consistent with the nature of the question. "Do you" seems to place it in the category of a serious question and it's difficult to imagine, really difficult, that the person [be it woman or G~d] really doesn't "care for music" ~ it's hard to find people [or G~d?] who don't care for music [much less one who Leonard would be involved with, even at the level of fantasy writing of a love song]... and the "do ya" question seemed to sarcastically point to a way of making another point in its asking. The song seems to be so much about reconciling expectation with acceptance... and the "ya" seems more consistent in that.
"Do you" is much smoooooooother... you can draw out the "you" as long as you like, and it automatically has the smoothing effect; and for that matter, you really could do the same with "ya," but you'd be so much less likely to... it just winds up the question with a snap. It happened to be something that I noticed immediately, whereas I don't always notice minor changes of wording. You wouldn't think two little letters could be responsible for such a major, shift of tone... but there it is :D .

Truth be known, Leonard can sink it any ol' way he wants... "Do yuh?" and it'll be fine with me. I'm just caught up in the world of d'ruthers of originals right now. Okay... dead horse... get up.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
Steven
Posts: 2140
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby Steven » Fri May 01, 2009 5:38 pm

MaryB wrote:Spot on Lizzy - thanks
Thanks for catching what Mary meant, Lizzy. Sorry about that, Mary.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25377
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Fri May 01, 2009 5:45 pm

No problem, Steven... ordinarily, you'd have picked up on it yourself, anyway 8) . Just one of those 'off moments' in reading... like we all have :lol: .


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
User avatar
hydriot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:07 am
Location: back in the UK

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby hydriot » Sat May 02, 2009 10:23 pm

lizzytysh wrote:Hi Steven ~
What I think Mary meant by the "us" wasn't who his comment was directed to [at all], but was a reference to why "anal sex" was changed... that kind of coddling of audiences's ears, sensibilities, and such.
~ Lizzy
I was much irritated at Leonard bowdlerising 'anal sex' into 'careless sex', as it smacked of intellectual cowardice. It seemed a particularly strange thing to do, especially since what is offensive in that line is not anal sex but crack.

The last statistics I saw a few years back estimated that 34% of young British couples have anal sex, except in London where the ratio is 44%. That's vastly more than use crack. Anal sex is no big deal in Europe, but crack is a major issue. So how odd that Leonard censored the inoffensive words but retained the offensive one!
“If you do have love it's a kind of wound, and if you don't have it it's worse.” - Leonard, July 1988
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25377
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Sun May 03, 2009 5:17 am

You make a good point, Hydriot. At least here, regarding "anal sex" being part of a lyric would be considered, I don't know, 'crude'[?]... we tend to euphemize things here more than they do in Europe. His changing that lyric here is more understandable than his doing it in Europe [to me].

Perhaps, too, awareness of the acceptability of anal sex has lessened, whereas the danger of AIDS has increased... so "careless" sex carries more weight. It's not just about pregnancy any more, but life and death... or, at minimum, a very costly life. So, careless sex is a more up-to-date, current reference. Maybe the unspoken response to the line the way it used to be could be, "Yeah? So what? Why's he making it such a point of saying give me that? It's what most everyone gets, anyway. The "crack" still seems to be living life boldly on the edge [and in the unacceptable zone], beyond the norm... the same as the line, as originally written, suggested.

"Bowdlerising" ~ never heard that word. I'll have to look it up. Never heard "acuate," either, until the other day. Couldn't find it in one of my dictionaries. Will have to try another one and maybe it'll have your word, as well.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
User avatar
MarkW
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:28 pm
Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota, USA
Contact:

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MarkW » Tue May 05, 2009 12:01 am

I warped my poor kids by singing them Cohen songs since they were infants. Or at least singing when they were within earshot. I never censored anything except "Giving me head on the unmade bed" in Chelsea Hotel morphed into "Giving me hugs on the bearskin rug". There was just a limit to what I wanted to explain to my daughter!

Now she plays Winter Lady better than I do, with my 40 years of trying. And I don't censor any more.
...I told you when I came, I was a stranger.
Minneapolis 1975 / Minneapolis 2009 (Why so many years between???)
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25377
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Tue May 05, 2009 2:20 am

Now, wait a minute, MarkW, let me get this straight ~ You sang straight up the lyrics "Give me crack and anal sex" and "Stuff it up the hole in your culture" and " . . . kill a child" and . . . and . . ... but you altered "Giving me head on the unmade bed" :lol: ?

In my estimation, that would be the one most likely to not even be thought twice about... as there's only one word of 'question' in it, and even the meaning of that could be innocently misconstrued as being something not even questionable, much less 'bad.'

I do love the way you chose to change it, however... "Giving me hugs on the bearskin rug" is sweet for any age.


~ Lizzy

[Edited to change precious to sweet.]
Last edited by lizzytysh on Tue May 05, 2009 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
User avatar
hydriot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:07 am
Location: back in the UK

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby hydriot » Tue May 05, 2009 2:38 am

lizzytysh wrote:Perhaps, too, awareness of the acceptability of anal sex has lessened, whereas the danger of AIDS has increased... so "careless" sex carries more weight.
Hmmm. Good point. I didn't consider that angle because unprotected sex has never carried any fear for me, as I am one of those boringly old-fashioned people who positively enjoy being faithful. If everyone tomorrow just chose one partner and stuck with him or her for life, AIDS would simply cease to exist.
"Bowdlerising" ~ never heard that word. I'll have to look it up.
Dr Thomas Bowdler was an American who published an expurgated version of Shakespeare. It is a term of contempt for the Victorians' fondness for censoring anything lewd, and most especially for those vandals who knocked penises off ancient Greek statues.
“If you do have love it's a kind of wound, and if you don't have it it's worse.” - Leonard, July 1988
User avatar
MarkW
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:28 pm
Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota, USA
Contact:

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MarkW » Tue May 05, 2009 4:44 am

lizzytysh wrote:Now, wait a minute, MarkW, let me get this straight ~ You sang straight up the lyrics "Give me crack and anal sex" and "Stuff it up the hole in your culture" and " . . . kill a child" and . . . and . . ... but you altered "Giving me head on the unmade bed" :lol: ?

In my estimation, that would be the one most likely to not even be thought twice about... as there's only one word of 'question' in it, and even the meaning of that could be innocently misconstrued as being something not even questionable, much less 'bad.'

I do love the way you chose to change it, however... "Giving me hugs on the bearskin rug" is sweet for any age.

~ Lizzy
There a a LOT of Mr. Cohen's songs that I have never been able to master after, um, 41? years of trying. "Future" is one of them. And I wouldn't have tried that one around the kids.

I often counted on them not registering what I was saying. (Kids, looking at Science magazine in checkout line: "Dad, can you see Neptune?" Dad: "Neptune? You can't even see Uranus!" Woman in next line: *Glare*) But I just had a feeling "giving me head" would come up in conversation before I was ready to explain it. And I has only a couple seconds to come up with it since I'd already started singing the first line!

And I have no problem with "precious". I cringe a little every time I feel compelled to make the substitution.
...I told you when I came, I was a stranger.
Minneapolis 1975 / Minneapolis 2009 (Why so many years between???)
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25377
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Tue May 05, 2009 3:53 pm

Hey, MarkW... glad to see you didn't take any offense at my laughter. Your avoiding the song altogether puts it in context... and, when it comes to raising children, parents will censor as they see fit, anyway, their natural right. You know your children best, too, so if you think you could've gotten 'caught' and froze on the spot ;-) [only a couple seconds can make ya or break ya :lol: ], you're probably right.

Haha... the grocery store line... the same layers of humour that some movies are predicated on... good for the whole family, according to their age and understanding ;-) .

Nah. Don't cringe. It's a very sweet substitution and there's plenty of time for their fuller understanding... you're the Dad. And it sounds like you have a talented daughter 8) .


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
User avatar
linda_lakeside
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby linda_lakeside » Tue May 05, 2009 7:40 pm

It would seem I never rec'd a topifc notif. for the do ya/do you debate. For those that do and those that don't know me - I really don't think that 'do you' was written for its little two word rhyme. My rather lame entry on this follows along in the same vein as 'who knows'. I too like 'do ya' - and never thought it was written to 'rhyme' with anything. It's more the rock thing. The loose, everyday talk - and it does have more impact. As in 'you never show it to me anymore, do ya'. Do you, esp. in this case, would be ridiculous. I stand by my 'who knows' - I've never been able or even wanted to try and second guess Leonard. Many new 'faces' and it's good to see the board alive with opinion. Donchya think?
~ The smell of perfume in the air, bits of beauty everywhere ~ Leonard Cohen.
John K.
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:45 pm
Contact:

Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby John K. » Tue May 05, 2009 11:44 pm

I am quite sure that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

In the original album version, and the tour that followed it, Mr. Cohen sang "do ya" because it rhymed with "Hallelujah".

John Cale was the first (as far as I know) to cover Mr. Cohen's song with the pronunciation of "do you", ignoring the fact that it no longer rhymed.

After that, many other performers pronounced it "do you".

Mr. Cohen probably realized that the correct pronunciation sounds better and that it's less important that it doesn't rhyme.

For myself, I like "do you" better. I think rhyming is optional in songwriting anyway, although it usually helps a song to be listenable to others.
I love to speak with John
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit

http://www.johnkloberdanz.com

Return to “Leonard Cohen's music”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest