"do you" vs "do ya"

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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suzanneorange
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"do you" vs "do ya"

Postby suzanneorange » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:15 am

Does anyone know why Leonard stopped saying "Do ya" in Hallelujah?
Steven
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby Steven » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:32 am

Hi,

I don't know why others didn't reply. My feeling is that the "do you" is more respectful
and comes from a more peaceful place within Leonard Cohen than the previously
delivered "do ya." The "do you" is more responsive. The "do ya" is more reactive.
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linda_lakeside
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby linda_lakeside » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:20 am

Leonard has always been noted for his precise enunciation, as in Master Poems - every word is 'precise'. I think 'do ya' is a way of communicating in the common vernacular - speaking in a loose, and 'general' way. The alliteration is a way of communicating what he feels, I think,or speaking to his audience in a way he thinks 'they' may feel, as he knows the difference between 'do you' and 'do ya'. It's a way of communication in it a subtle form. But then, I'm crazy, and wear bells on my toes. So who knows?
~ The smell of perfume in the air, bits of beauty everywhere ~ Leonard Cohen.
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby UrPal » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:07 pm

The "do ya" seemed more rock'n'roll to me - like the "hero" of the piece seemed to be saying, "OK, it's only rock'n'roll. I like it a lot, but you don't get it, do ya?". It also had a more accusative, assertive and distinctual thrust. And in that sense it continued the flag waving sentiment of "we are ugly but we have the music" for music lovers the world over.

Not that this is as big an issue as the "anal sex" thing :D . If you get here, Dr H Guy, it has occurred to me since our previous discussion about this that the "anal sex" line is important in setting up the sideswerving joke of the "stuff it up the hole in your culture" which follows it. The original verse works more effectively in saying to the listener ,"A plague on both your houses, you vacuous bastards. At the same time I recognise that I'm a fully paid up participant in that vacuum" as the two parts marry up more self-evidently.
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linda_lakeside
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby linda_lakeside » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:34 pm

Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?
~ The smell of perfume in the air, bits of beauty everywhere ~ Leonard Cohen.
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pm

So who knows?
Everybody ;-) .


Actually, I wondered about that switch, too, as I've preferred the slightly harder-edged "do ya" ~ however, I can understand and relate to the explanations that have been given, so can accept the change. For me, "do ya" brought more distinct closure to the line and the question. Anyway will work, though... no real complaint for me here.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
AvidCohenFan
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby AvidCohenFan » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:24 pm

linda_lakeside wrote:Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?
Do ya rhymes with Hallelujah though
MaryB
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MaryB » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:15 pm

I remember the time my husband came home and said to me, "Come here, Mary, you have to hear this.". He had been listening to 'The Future' in the vehicle and had just become aware of the a... sex phrase. That phrase made him listen more closely to all the lyrics of this song and he finally 'got it'. This phrase and the 'do ya' do add 'thrust' (UrPal) and 'harder edge' (Lizzy) that are crucial to these songs and really make one pay attention to what is being said.

Since, so many of his fans have been following him for decades, we understand why the original phrasing was in place. If he has changed these phrases so as not to offend the 'delicate' sensibilities of his maturing fan base, I wish he hadn't done so. If as Dr H Guy, I think, said somewhere along the line, that it might be a question of trying to appease the venues' protocols, I understand. But, I still miss them.

Kindest regards,
Mary
1993 Detroit 2008 Kitchener June 2-Hamilton June 3 & 4-Vienna Sept 24 & 25-London RAH Nov 17 2009 NYC Feb 19-Grand Prairie Apr 3-Phoenix Apr 5-Columbia May 11-Red Rocks Jun 4-Barcelona Sept 21-Columbus Oct 27-Las Vegas Nov 12-San Jose Nov 13 2010 Sligo Jul 31 & Aug 1-LV Dec 10 & 11 2012 Paris Sept 30-London Dec 11-Boston Dec 16 2013 Louisville Mar 30-Amsterdam Sept 20
sirp2000
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby sirp2000 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:31 pm

linda_lakeside wrote:Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?
But what does "Do you" rhyme with? Surely it was written specifically so that "Do ya" rhymes with Hallelujah. It's not pronounced Halleluyoo.

Also look at the end of the line in the other six verses:

(over)threw ya
to ya
fool ya
knew ya
do ya
(out)drew ya

These all rhyme with Hallelujah where "you" doesn't.

I guess Leonard now thinks that the "respectful" pronunciation is more important than trite rhyming!
imaginary friend
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby imaginary friend » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:00 pm

ACF wrote:
Do ya rhymes with Hallelujah though

I agree, it's hal-ay-loo-ya
not hal-ay-loo-yoo :razz:

I prefer 'do ya' as well, but Leonard himself radiates more dignity and depth these days, maybe that's why he put 'do ya' to bed. 'Do you' seems more in keeping with the 'feel' of the concerts on this tour.

I think the thing I love the most about Leonard, is the way that his music and poems have shifted as he has grown and changed. From romantic youth, through ladies' man, spiritual seeker, been-around-the-block, political prophet, up to present-day, mature-man-of wisdom-but-still-sexy. And he's taken us along for the ride; allowed us into his life; shared his ideas and his beliefs with us. What a remarkable thing to do!
MaryB
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MaryB » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:00 pm

IMHO, the 'ya' is more for impact than for 'trite rhyming'. In his poetry and songs, LC does not always stick to rhyming to get his message across.

Kindest regards,
Mary
1993 Detroit 2008 Kitchener June 2-Hamilton June 3 & 4-Vienna Sept 24 & 25-London RAH Nov 17 2009 NYC Feb 19-Grand Prairie Apr 3-Phoenix Apr 5-Columbia May 11-Red Rocks Jun 4-Barcelona Sept 21-Columbus Oct 27-Las Vegas Nov 12-San Jose Nov 13 2010 Sligo Jul 31 & Aug 1-LV Dec 10 & 11 2012 Paris Sept 30-London Dec 11-Boston Dec 16 2013 Louisville Mar 30-Amsterdam Sept 20
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lizzytysh
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:20 pm

Reasoning I can live with, Sheila 8) :D ... [still miss the ya, though ;-) ].

Trite rhyming? Leonard?? Mmmm. Wrong guy 8) .


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
MaryB
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby MaryB » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:16 pm

lizzytysh wrote:[still miss the ya, though ;-) ].


~ Lizzy
Agreed Lizzy!

Don't coddle us Leonard, we can take it!

Best regards,
Mary
1993 Detroit 2008 Kitchener June 2-Hamilton June 3 & 4-Vienna Sept 24 & 25-London RAH Nov 17 2009 NYC Feb 19-Grand Prairie Apr 3-Phoenix Apr 5-Columbia May 11-Red Rocks Jun 4-Barcelona Sept 21-Columbus Oct 27-Las Vegas Nov 12-San Jose Nov 13 2010 Sligo Jul 31 & Aug 1-LV Dec 10 & 11 2012 Paris Sept 30-London Dec 11-Boston Dec 16 2013 Louisville Mar 30-Amsterdam Sept 20
Steven
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby Steven » Fri May 01, 2009 3:52 am

Hi Mary and everyone,

I don't think Leonard is coddling us. Matter of fact, never took the "ya"
or "you" personally and considered it as directed to someone other than the
song hearer (that the song hearer was 3rd party to the lyrics).
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lizzytysh
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Re: "do you" vs "do ya"

Postby lizzytysh » Fri May 01, 2009 5:57 am

Hi Steven ~

What I think Mary meant by the "us" wasn't who his comment was directed to [at all], but was a reference to why "anal sex" was changed... that kind of coddling of audiences's ears, sensibilities, and such.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde

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