URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

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clive cass
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby clive cass » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:55 pm

AEG seem to be getting all the flak over this fiasco and I agree that they must be culpable and perhaps are rightly being blamed. Leonard seems to have been absolved, probably correctly, of any fault. However it is Leonard's own management that rarely seems to get a mention.

Perhaps i do not understand the system but surely AEG will try to put on as many shows as possible, wherever and whenever they can, charge as much as they can etc etc. they are a business who have the rights to a commodity (of clearly finite life) and their objective understadably is to make as much money as possible for themselves.

Whilst Leonard himself may have no involvement in what AEG arrange he will have established certain parameters with his own team such as for example how many concerts and maximum travelling he can do in a given time period. He will establish the quality level of hotels and food he requires. He will also establish his personal religious preferences. This tour has been running for 5 years and yes I believe Leonard's management will know everything about Leonard from what makes him laugh and cry right down to how many pairs of underpants he wears a week to the type of toilet paper he prefers to use. They have, after all, provided him with a home all over the world for 5 whole years. Leonard has delegated his trust to his management it is then up to them to ensure that AEG's plans do not conflict.

Perhaps AEG also act as Leonard's management in which case they will have been or should have been fully briefed as described above but I am assuming that AEG do not act in this capacity.

As I have said before on this thread my instinct is that Leonard's own management are to blame for this situation by not properly briefing AEG and reviewing AEG's proposed tour schedule and dates. They clearly did not notice the clash of dates and did not pick up or respond to complaints about these dates when they were first announced. AEG may have been at fault in not taking these complaints seriously enough to pass them on to Leonard's management to establish if they were a serious issue for Leonard.
Dublin(3) 14/5/12, Lille 25/9/10, Liverpool 14/7/09, Manchester 30/11/08, Manchester 17/6/08, London 1988 or 1993 date unknown, Manchester 27/2/85
HelenOE
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby HelenOE » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:11 pm

This is a good point. Every touring musical act has a standard contract drawn up by their management (which can of course be modified as necessary for particular venues) specifying everything from what kind of power supply the stage needs to what kind of bottled water is wanted in the dressing rooms. Sounds like it's (past) time to put religious holidays into the tour rider.
LHHUNTER
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby LHHUNTER » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:00 pm

Rodin you are becoming so witty in fact you are half way there
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Rodin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:31 pm

Have you been bingeing on those fried Mars Bars again?
Misunderstood
LHHUNTER
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby LHHUNTER » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Just arrived in Rome been looking everywhere for a deep fried pizza
HelenOE
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby HelenOE » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:04 pm

LHHUNTER wrote:Just arrived in Rome been looking everywhere for a deep fried pizza
You are so lost. You need a US county fair for that.
James-on-tour
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby James-on-tour » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Am I missing something here, if he was ordained as a Rinzai Zen Buddist monk in 1996
would that not trump his Judism. I am just asking ....
Is the change for Leonard or is he doing it out of respect for others who might attend ?
Would a similar change be made if it fell on a Christian or other religious holiday ?
I am getting a bit exhausted by all this now anyway as I imagine many others are
as well ......
Rodin
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Rodin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:51 pm

LHHUNTER wrote:Just arrived in Rome been looking everywhere for a deep fried pizza

The Scotch have always been a deeply uncultured breed.
Misunderstood
UrPal
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby UrPal » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:15 pm

James-on-tour wrote:Am I missing something here, if he was ordained as a Rinzai Zen Buddist monk in 1996
would that not trump his Judism. I am just asking ....
Is the change for Leonard or is he doing it out of respect for others who might attend ?
Would a similar change be made if it fell on a Christian or other religious holiday ?
I am getting a bit exhausted by all this now anyway as I imagine many others are
as well ......
I think Leonard Cohen has made clear when questioned about his years as a buddhist monk that he didn't regard it as in conflict with his religious background as a jew - he hadn't gone looking for a new religion as he had a perfectly good one to start with, or words to that effect.

In other words, I believe that Leonard Cohen remains a practising jew. A number of tour pictures uploaded to the tour blog have shown that Cohen is still engaged in the practice of the faith of his forebears.

I'm not jewish myself, but am sufficiently familar to know that Yom Kippur and the jewish new year are akin in significance to Christmas or Easter to practicising Christians.

So I guess the cancellation of these gigs is a personal preference of LC in terms of his own observance of the practices of his religion, a mark of respect to the not insignificant number of his fans who are jewish and a recognition that to proceed with the scheduled concerts would place him publicly at odds with centuries of the traditions of his antecedents.

The issue has brought to my mind the internal debate which rages in Topol during the fiddler on the roof film as he contemplates each of his daughters chosen suitors. Not being either jewish or now practising a faith myself but raised a catholic, I understand the dilemma but am at the same time sympathetic to those who stand outside the circle of that internal dilemma and find the situation mystifying and expensively inconvenient.
Last edited by UrPal on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rodin
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Rodin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:26 pm

You're from Manchester and a Catholic?
Which school or church?

As you know I am a defrocked Mancunian priest.
Misunderstood
UrPal
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby UrPal » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:31 pm

I didn't know, but you certainly sing like one, father rod....

I'm not from the parish of Manchester.

Do you still take confession? It's been a while...
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Vicomte » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:43 pm

Rodin wrote:Have you been bingeing on those fried Mars Bars again?
The Manchester dessert, taken after after their prawn sandwiches....
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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clive cass
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby clive cass » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:25 pm

There are 2 aspects to religious observance. One the spirit and the other the rules of the religion.

All religons have a spririt that followers observe as does Judaism but Judaism also has a lot of rules and regulations such as its laws of kosher food and what you can and cannot do on the sabbath and other holy days.

At the opposite extreme Christianity has far less rules although Sunday, the Christian sabbath, is a day of rest and famously johnathan Edwards the great triple jumper would not defend his gold medal as the event was on a Sunday.

Christians who observe the day of rest can be flexible as they may say that as long as I rested for most of the day I can do other things at night so if Leonard was an observant Christian he might perform a concert on a Sunday night after he intentionally rested during the day.

However as I said Judaism is also a highly regulated religion and there is no such flexibility and therefore to observe certain holy days it is all or nothing.

Of course it does depend on how observant a person is even in Judaism and many Jews who call themselves traditional or middle of the road Jews such as myself and the majority of mainstream Jews are more flexible on the weekly sabbath than they are on the 3 most holy days of the year. There are a lot of Jews who do nothing jewish all year but observe the 3 holiest days and I suspect that Leonard Cohen is primarily a spiritual Jew with a low level of regulatory observance except for these 3 holiest days.

I do however also suspect that whilst Leonard would seem to be a man of high principals and beliefs of his own he would also not wish to offend his many jewish fans, friends and family and observing these holy days in the way he has done is showing a huge amount of community support and respect to his fellow Jews.
Dublin(3) 14/5/12, Lille 25/9/10, Liverpool 14/7/09, Manchester 30/11/08, Manchester 17/6/08, London 1988 or 1993 date unknown, Manchester 27/2/85
HelenOE
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby HelenOE » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 pm

James-on-tour wrote: Would a similar change be made if it fell on a Christian or other religious holiday ?......
I don't think it would need to be made for a Christian holiday. As far as I know, the only sizable Christian community that has anything like an "obligation" on Christmas and Easter is Catholicism, and that's an obligation to attend Mass, not to refrain from such things as travel, or work, or eating. Nothing to say you couldn't go to Mass in the morning and then go happily off to see Leonard Cohen that evening.
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Steve Wilcox » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:31 pm

:?
Last edited by Steve Wilcox on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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