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Kush
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Post by Kush » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:04 pm

Byron...what makes you think I haven't? :)
Songster.....what I meant was that the data was always available, just the lack of sophisticated data collection methods. Imagine you are living in a cave 10000 yrs ago. You come out of the cave each morning and see the sun, the vegetation, the rains etc etc. all readily available. That's the data. So it is perfectly logical for you to create superior entities than yourself - the sun-god, the rain-god etc etc.
I haven't found it very useful to read ancient or even not-so-ancient texts - that is not to say that they are not valid or interesting to others. It is more useful for me to read updated modern texts where the ancient and not-so-ancient knowledge is integrated. It is of course up to me to pick the best sources for myself.
On hindsight, I shall take Rachel's definition of agnostic one step further...."distancing of oneself from the notion of belief or non-belief" Why even go that route when you are not in a position to decide?
I am not interested in knowing whether god exists or doesnt. I am only interested in knowing the mind of god. The contradiction is intended. :)
songster
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Post by songster » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:16 pm

Out of curiosity what are the updated modern texts you are referring to... I find it very useful to read modern commentaries on the the old texts. It certainly helps to clear up the "confusing" parts that I can't get a grasp on.
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Makera
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Post by Makera » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:50 pm

Rachel wrote:
I would like to point out though that being an agnostic is an informed decision...[...] Either some sort of 'creator' or 'first mover' exists, or it doesn't. Personally, I do not feel in a position to decide between the two.
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what you said here, since later you say: "I didn't decide to be agnostic, I just am!". :?

Anyway, if you are at all interested in knowing who Carl Gustav Jung was, you could read his autobiography, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections". Or, "Modern Man in Search of His Soul". You can also get a hint from the exerpt on Synchronicity I contributed to Pete's thread of that title.

Byron~
I was wondering what you meant by your reference to "americana/russo pax nauseum"(sic)? Is that 'russo' as in things Russian (are you a Russophile or -phobe?). Does the rest mean you are not impressed with Dickinson &/or find discussions on 'peace' in the soul 'nauseating'? Being cryptic or vague can be ennervating, you know.

~Makera
Last edited by Makera on Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:01 pm

I haven't read the work of the writers you've mentioned here.....greater the loss for me. Have always believed, in the years since, that I should have taken at least one of those philosophy courses offered :( , but I agree wholeheartedly with your response here. It also truly reminds me of Leonard's line, "You can add up the parts. You won't have the sum," or "You can add up the parts, but you won't have the sum" ~ whichever way it goes. It's one of the many reasons Leonard's work appeals to me. I think I may have avoided those courses because of what you noted here, "I'll never be able to understand this." I've made note now of your implicit recommendation of Hannah Arendt's book, The Life of the Mind. In many ways, it seems to me that the ancients were much wiser ~ and certainly more inquiring in that manner ~ than we have become :( .

~ Elizabeth
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:06 pm

Makera!

Where is that Synchronicity thread, anyway? I tried in vain to locate it yesterday, so I could relate something. Thanks for any directions you can give for me to get there :D .

~ Lizzy
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Rachel
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Post by Rachel » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:00 pm

Alright Makera, I'll reformulate my confusing words relating to my decision, or not, of calling myself agnostic:
After making some forays into questions relating to the nature of theism, what I read (mostly Kant, Descartes and Leibniz I admit) I reached the conclusion that, whilst arguments for theism are coherent, they are not convincing. Therefore, I decided the term 'agnostic' was applicable to me. This was all preceded by some study of Hinduism and Buddhism, both of which I also found to be fully coherent as systems of belief. For me, this undermined the notion of 'one truth'. So I both decided and didn't decide.
And don't be such an Erbsenzaehler! (pea-counter in German)
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Rachel
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Post by Rachel » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:21 pm

I do agree, Kush, that we are in a better position than our parents and ancestors as regards acquiring knowledge. And also that, potentially, we have the possibility of thereby reaching a higher level of wisdom, in terms of answering or posing the 'big' questions. And it is a very exciting time to live in. The problem for me is the selection of what to read - deciding what I am NOT interested in.
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:10 pm

Dear Makera, I for one have had a belly-full of naval gazing and pea-counting, in a thread in which certain contributers grip specific words like wire haired fox terriers and won't let go.
It is obvious from reading between the lines of quite a few of our contributers, that some of us have studied theology, philosophy, sociology and beer drinking in our undergraduate days. Those days were heady days indeed, but they are behind us. I don't want to turn on my computer screen and find that I'm being lectured at again by some prissie school ma'am, who has the brass neck to tell one postgraduate what her posting and descriptive noun form means. My use of the americana/russo pax nauseum phrase was a light hearted attempt at hinting that enough is truly enough. I too, am amazed at the improvements in Helven's English and use of intricately constructed sentences. All I will say is that someone, and I'm not saying who, is removing the uric acid out of several interacting participants from within this electronically enhanced self perpetuating community. And I'm tired of it appearing in a constant stream of freshly steaming vapours across my screen. :roll:
Byron 'sends his ragarse.'
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Vesuvius
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Post by Vesuvius » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:18 pm

Ciao Byron!

Should not you have said "Australiana/Russo pax nauseum"? Makera is Australian not American! Your prejudice against Americans shows again!

Byron, you must telephone for help. Steaming vapours is serious problem! It may be internal.

Vesuvius
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:35 pm

Ves

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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margaret
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Post by margaret » Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:28 am

I cannot see how using the word americana should signify any anti-america sentiment, it is a common term used before in discussions here. There seems far too much in- depth analysis lately on words that various people have chosen without their intending any offence to anyone :roll:

Is it considered anti-Russian to use the word russo also? :roll:
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Helven
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Post by Helven » Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:15 am

I’m sorry for being too boring in the thread where many “specific words” were mentioned. The only reason for putting there that observation was the fact that, as I knew from my student days, sometimes it wasn’t easy to look into all that heap of literature where many terms and names often were used without translation. So I hoped it would be helpful to know where and what one could find - there was a question upon this theme...
Actually, I intended to send a private message to JMFlash but then decided there could be someone else interested in a piece of information of that kind. So I posted it. If it was unnecessary – sorry! I’ll certainly forbear from further posting in such a manner.

Yours,
TH
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:53 am

Ah Songster...to be honest I don't read as much as I sponge stuff off various sources...including non conventional ones such as Hollywood movies...the idea in The Matrix (first part) was terrific but I think they screwed it up after that.
But since you ask, the more philosophical stuff that I am currently dipping into are Michio Kaku's book Hyperspace (about the physical universe) and Rodolfo Llinas' I of The Vortex: From neurons to Self (about ourselves). Here is the link to Kaku's website and the amazon link to Llinas' book.

http://www.mkaku.org/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

In the past, useful books have been Carl Sagan's Cosmos (replete with historical references- ancient and not-so-ancient) and Shadows of Our Forgotten Ancestors: A search for who we are
Francis Crick's The Astonishing Hypothesis: The scientific search for soul and Einstein's Ideas and Opinions as well as Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time. All are available from Amazon...but actually the science-philosophy section at Borders and B&N have all these titles that you can peruse through.

Here is another site that typifies my approach to questions small and big.

http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/

have a good weekend.

And I love americana music....or alternate country music...or whatever. :D
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Vesuvius
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Post by Vesuvius » Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:27 am

Ciao Margaret,

Good question! Was Byron not connecting Makera and Helven together. Therefore it should be Australiana/Russo pax nauseum! Not Americana/Russo pax nauseum. The real joke is in the pax nauseum of course. But nauseating peace loses its punch if it doe not include the Americans. In Byron's mind, that is.


Vesuvius
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Makera
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Post by Makera » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:35 am

Ah, Byron, back to your obvious self again!
As for 'taking the piss' out of others, that is evidently your self-appointed role on these forums. And what were those snide remarks to me re: "call a spade a spade"? Can't you practice what you preach?
"Removing the uric acid"! :roll: How "prissie"(sic) is that?! :lol:
Name-calling is such an infantile manifestation of impotent rage from a pricked ego. Are you so eaten up with jealousy for people receiving compliments and sharing their diverse knowledge and ideas, that you can't 'participate' without nastiness masquerading as "light hearted hinting"?! The only thing you could possibly be seeing in a "steaming stream" across your pc screen is the venom you spit! (Yes, definitely an "internal problem")
Oh, so discussions on 'meaning of life' subjects are for "undergraduates" and "behind us", are they? Sad to see someone just give up learning from life and others. Since all I know is self-taught by private study and actual experience, (stated here before) I don't stop learning from and sharing with others. Maybe some people with a 'piece of paper' think that's the be-all, I don't. 'Qualifications do not necessarily confer competence', as my CPA mother used to say.(A real expert: excelled at work; failed at life)

BTW, when I restate, or define, something another has said, it is to clarify - and ensure I have inferred their intended meaning correctly. Excuse me for wishing to avoid misinterpretations or assumptions!! :roll:

Just in case some didn't notice:- It took some effort to pull off your manipulative, no-one-knows-what-I've-suffered, 'fishing excercise', didn't it? (Had to play 'nice' too long?)...I knew you wanted your poem found and commented on so it would come back to page (1)...I happily did that for you, seeing how much you craved that attention; and what do I get from you? Unjustifiable abuse! How charming.

You are now only being smarmy, sly, and boring....... ad nauseam!

~Makera

"I am for peace;
But when I speak, they are for war."
Ps 120:7
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