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Byron
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Post by Byron » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:16 pm

Rachel, I'm talking about the shadows on the cave wall, and the rest as they say, was history.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:20 pm

How do we know something is beautiful? Perhaps because we are only dreaming we are here, while our true selves are awaiting our return to reality. In that reality we have seen what is beauty and it is that which gives us the yardstick for measuring what we see as beauty in this dreamlike existence.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by Tony » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:19 pm

Is this a real posting or is it not?
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:31 pm

there is no posting
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Makera
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Post by Makera » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:35 pm

Rachel~
I really liked your explication; :D I ditto Kush. Of course I was complimenting the open-mindedness of your decision to not take a 'rigid' position, one way or another. "Distancing" oneself from the belief/disbelief question is exactly where I was for the first half of my life. And, for the very reasons evident in some over-reactive misinterpretations (by others) of my previous posts :shock: :( . What has been propogated by various institutionalized religions/sects/cults etc. has turned more intelligent people 'off' than ever 'convinced'! (Oh boy, have I seen some of those bastards in action!!) I can appreciate the anger generated by that, but would wish for those embittered by it, to "let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals..."
My experiences came through after studying C G Jung; and direct, personal, empirical evidence. I went from 'agnostic' to Gnostic. So, I can now say (like Jung, when asked), "I don't have to 'believe'; I know!"
Ah, Free Will. Not even the Ultimate Creative Force of the universe could ever, or would ever, take that away from us. Therefore, let no person dare to try!

Love,
Makera

If we keep our backs to the sun, we will only see our shadow.
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Rachel
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Post by Rachel » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:49 pm

Okay Byron,
'Shadows' and 'ideas' would be the extent of my knowlegde of Plato I'm afraid. But I'm not convinced, as Fischer said to Rumsfeld ast year. I think Plato's shaodow philosophy is as convincing as the idea that we are all a part of Krishna's dream. Do you know if Plato actually believed in the Greek Gods?
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Post by Rachel » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:54 pm

Makera, I do take your point. But I don't think we have free will as regards the choice of belief in a deity. I didn't decide to be agnostic, I just am!
Can I ask what your direct personal, empirical evidence is, in a nutshell? (Unless it is too personal). Just so I don't have to read a lot of Jung. I don't know much about him, except his more-or-less Freud related stuff.
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:10 pm

Oh hell Rachel, I thought Plato was a Greek god :oops:
I've been worshipping at the feet of an idle idol made from clay........
Surely we have named our votive offering vessels after him.....plates?
Or is that something to do with rich yuppies doing wierd exercises in lofty rooms. :oops: damn, that's pilates. I have to increase the medication. MATRON!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Rachel
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Post by Rachel » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:24 pm

Don't make fun of me Byron! :( *lower lip trembling dangerously* Come on now, settle down, I know that Socrates was made to drink poison for not believing in the Gods, or some of them, but what did Plato think?
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:40 pm

Actually, it was Plato and Aristotle what caused much brain banging for years and years.
"Without the addition of some other nature there is no seeing or being seen. Unless there be a third nature, the owner of the eyes will see nothing and the colours will be invisible. Light is their bond, and light is no ignoble thing. Whose is that light which makes the eye to see perfectly and the visible to appear? The Sun. Neither sight nor the eye in which sight resides is the Sun. The eye is most like the Sun, and the power which the eye possesses is a sort of effluence which is dispensed by the Sun? The Sun is not sight, but the author of sight who is recognised by sight. And this is he whom I call the child of the good, whom the good begat in his own likeness to be in the visible world, in relation to sight and the things of sight, what the good is in the intelluctual world in relation to mind and the things of the mind.
The soul is like the eye: when resting upon that on which truth and being shine, the soul perceives and understands and is radiant with intelligence; but when turned towards twilight of becoming and perishing has opinion only and goes blinking about from one opinion to another and seems to have no intelligence."
From my notes, and a book edited by Diogenes Allen and Eric O. Springsted, entitled 'Primary Readings In Philosophy For Understanding Theology' Published by Gracewing of Leominster, England and Westminster/John Knox Press of Louisville, Kentucky, in 1992. With a little bit of help from 'Greek Philosophy and the Christian Notion of God' by Gerard Watson, published by The Columbia Press, Blackrock, Co. Dublin, 1994.
I apologise for the short lecture, but I felt it was pertinent in our current discussion when one considers that this was written between 428 -348 BC That makes it incredible.
The edit has been done to assist the veracity of my posting and to guide anyone to further readings.
I've noticed of late the increasing volume of literary quotes and I did not want to be left out of this americana/russo pax nauseum.
Last edited by Byron on Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:00 pm

Hi Byron ~

So, there should be quotation marks before the words "Without" and "The," after the word "intelligence?" Which one spoke those words? Plato? You're right that it's incredible, regardless of when written, and especially so because of when written. The true nature of man remains the same, despite the eons.

~ Elizabeth
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:14 pm

The words are Plato's from his 'Republic.'
He offers the simile of the Sun to help understand the nature of transcendent good. (Which Christianity took to be God)
His texts were used by Christian thinkers.
It became an important way of discussing how a good and perfect being could create and impart goodness within a world that is not simply an extension of God. :?

The 'Biff, baff, ping....' posting, is all my own work and I have the headache to prove it. :shock:
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by Kush » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:57 am

Rachel....Actually I like to think of myself as a materialistic person. Not ina negative sense but in as opposed to being spiritual. I absolutely agree with you that belief in a deity or multi-deity is fully logical, in fact perhaps even more logical than non-belief. From the dawn of history man has been trying to make sense of himself and his existence and of the physical world. Given the data available as well as the lack of sophisticated data collection methods in the period of time that these belief systems arose, it was completely logical to believe in a higher supreme being etc etc. But I am a great believer in the accumulated wisdom of humans (on average).....we know more than our parents who knew more than theirs. Our children will know more than us and their children more than them and so on. Unless of course we blow ourselves up in the meantime - if our accumulated linear wisdom cannot keep pace with the exponential growth of technology (re-phrased from carl sagan).
So from my perspective, at this exciting juncture in human history it is rather unsatisfying to believe in deities and perhaps a bit of a cop out. This time of history is really cool coz' we actually have the tools to answer atleast the really tiny questions regarding ourselves and our place in the universe...perhaps answering these small questions will lead to formulating the big questions a little more accurately.
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:10 am

Kush, just try and think what it must have been like for Copernicus and having to keep his mouth shut for all those years
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by songster » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:51 pm

Sure, we have accumulated more "data" and have been able to make more sense of our physical world. But in what way do we really "know" more than previous generations of Thinkers? I had always been bored by the ancient Greek philosphers, Augustine, Aquinas, Kant, Descarte, Hegel Heidegger, et al and couldn't understand why anyone bothered with them. One day I picked up Hannah Arendt's The Life of the Mind. I started reading it and thought, "I'll never be able to understand this." But I got hooked and was totally blown away by their insight and their obsession with truth and ultimate questions. As for us, I don't even think we know what the big questions are anymore.
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